GHBs at Irish cultural events

[Baglady]

The word is "Fleadh" not fladh pronounced roughly " flar"

I knew I didn't have enough useless letters in that gaelic word when I hit send but I was in a bit of a rush and didn't have time to correct it. Thanks for correcting me. :roll:

[Baglady]

OK,
have I sufficiantly offended everyone or are there more of you begging for a swatting?

[AlanB]

Baglady,

What's the history behind the avatar? I just gave it a close scrute and it looks like the sort of thing you'd get burned/lynched for once upon a..?? (Or, could find offensive )

Alan

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

I've been told by a reputable linguist of Irish extraction that "fleadh" can also mean "orgy." At last, a decisive link between the All-Irelands and Led Zeppelin...

Don't trust anything about bagpipe history written by Grattan Flood (or anybody that uses him as a serious source)...

The last known reference to piob mhor playing in Ireland dates to around 1745. This would suggest that there was some definite overlapping between the last generation of old piob mhor players and the first generation of union pipers. This may also help to explain the ceol mor-like character that is strongly evident in a number of old Irish tunes that are associated with the union/uilleann pipes (e.g. Humours of Ballyloughlin, Fraher's Jig, etc..."March of the King of Laois" has been identified by Allan MacDonald as the same tune as the piobaireachd "Cumha Donnchadh MacRath"/ "Duncan MacRae of Kintail's Lament"...there's one other tune he found that's common to both traditions but I can't remember it's name...The piobaireachd is called "MacNeill is Lord There" or something).

Early piob mhor revivalists in late-19th-20th century Ireland were fond of playing pipes with only two drones, a bass and a tenor, as there were surviving illustrations depicting Irish pipers playing two drone sets. This was quite common as well in Scotland before 1700 and no doubt there were likely some among the last of the Irish piob mhor players who probably had three drone sets. The modern two-droned "Irish Warpipe" (ugh...) got scrapped becuase it was thought Irish players would have an unfair advantage playing in Scottish competitions. I'm too lazy to look around for it, but somewhere out there, there's a wonderful photograph of a bunch of Irish troops (in solid green kilts) stationed with the UN in Holland in the '50s parading down along by a canal surrounded by some small children and being lead by a group of pipers all playing two-droned sets.

[oleorezinator]

...my god, what have I done?!

This topic has degenerated into a GHB thread, for which there are numerous forums already out there. I should have known better.

"Dale! How do you lock this crazy thing, Dale?" - G. Jetson

t

turlough mac suibhne, brendan breathnach and a long line of uilleann pipers played the "bagpipes." so what? still get a thrill when you say the word "pipes"? (you know, the pipes, the pipes are calling.) right gang? tommy, listen buddy, this crowd is always chomping at the bit to mindlessly drone on ad nauseum about the irishness of their wonderful instrument. who gives a dead rat's anus? there's no use in listing the other forums where they can kiss each others ass. their position here is as always indefensible. BRITISH MILITARY DOG sh*t !!!

[Uilliam]

Here's an excerpt from a paper I wrote regarding upiping/issues related to upiping:

The warpipes have a long history in Ireland, with strong associations with the military. There is evidence that they were used for military purposes prior to the 14th century, as amongst the deeds of the Priory of the Holy Trinity, Dublin, are mentioned "Geoffrey the Piper," and "William the Piper," respectively (O'Neill, 1913, p. 36).


Further historical evidence of the importance of the warpipes in Irish society is implied by O'Neill, who devotes a chapter of his book, "Irish Minstrels and Musicians" to pipers penalized in the 16th and 17th centuries (O'Neill, 1913, p. 56). Warpipers were considered a dangerous element in Irish society by the occupying English, as almost all of the incursions into the Pale were headed by pipers. Piping was outlawed by the English, with violaters subject to "twenty lashes on the bare back" (p. 57) or transportation to the Barbadoes. Some pipers were granted clemency, however, as O'Neill lists 41 pipers who received state pardons between 1550 and 1603.(

Janice the paper ye are writing is flawed.Your sources are not reliable and I certainly would not be paying too much attention to Tommy Cannon aka O'Cainainn(accordian player)self proclaimed Guru of irish Music...but I digress...So here we go..........

In the deeds of Christchurch Cathedral Dublin,a Geoffrey Piper is referred to in 1206 while in another deed of 1260'Wm.the piper and Alice,his wife'were granted lands in the parish of St.Werburghs within the city walls
These men could have been musicians,but the urban context raises the possibility that they were plumbers:for example two'pipers'admitted freemen of Dublin in 1469,one having served out his apprenticeship,were apparently plumbers and not musicians.[1]


One of the most frequently quoted statements about bagpipers in Ireland is that bagpipers were among the Irish Learned Orders that the Statutes of Kilkenny(1366) forbade to frequent the English Pale..This originated with James Hardiman,who edited the text of the statute(which is in Norman French) for publication in 1843.Hardiman read the term'feidanes' and assumed it was was an anglicised form of the Irish 'feadán'which in Gaelic eventually came to mean'the chanter of the bagpipe'[2]

The modern translation is'Fferdanes'[3]

'Fferdanes'is an anglicisation of the Irish term fear dána,'a poet,a minstrel'literally'a man of art'...a term that could be used of nearly all professions.Wether the term covered bagpipers is impossible to say.[4]


Bibliography
[1]Calendar to Christchurch Deeds'Twenty-Third report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records in Ireland(London & Dublin 1891)nos478,508.
[2]A Statute of the fortieth year of King Edward III,..In The Irish Archaeological Society,Tracts'Walter Harris(ed)The works of Sir James Ware concerning Ireland(2 vols,Dublin,1739-45),II,p.161.relating to Ireland II(Dublin 1843)pp 54-5
[3]Edmund Curtis.Irish Historical Docs.1172-1922(London 1943 p55)
[4]Barnabe Rich,A new description of Ireland(London1610)pp37,38.

The constant reference by your self to' war pipe'(incidentally ye have misspelled it Mar) is another dubious piece of writing and is based on the only reference points, by (mainly) observers of military encounters.Even that is scant with only one recorded reference to a march.At the Battle of Orra 1583.
[Hector MacDonnell,'A sword from the Battle of Orra',The Irish Swordxx,81(Summer 19970),pp258,259]
Fact is, no one is really sure what was played outside of the military context, so the term is innapropriate.
The military concept has gained favour only over the last 150 years before that, as stated, it was unrecorded Clan Music....

As pointed out above, Pipers were not singled out for special treatment by the English, as it applied to nearly all travellers and vagabonds in general.But the myth has arisen and unfortunately ye are now quoting it as 'academic fact' when the facts point in an entirely different direction!

I feel that if ye are serious about doing a paper then more research is required afore ye submit some spurious findings from relatively unknown sources in ITM, let alone academic circles!

Maybe the above will be of help to ye but it is important when researching to get reliable information and not depend on what ye want to hear.

I am not too sure what the point of all this is anyway?other than lead poor old DJM into your 'acadamia' trap spring it then try to humiliate him publicly by letting the whole board know that he couldnae finish some tunes!! Bit sad really.
Slan Go Foill
Fellow Society of Antiquaries(Scotland)
Uilliam

[John S]

Absobloodylutely djm and Uilliam.
The Union (cat amongst the pigeons) pipe evolved from an instrument invented in Scotland around about 1700 called the Pastoral Bagpipe.
There are several extant sets from this period and there connection to the Union pipe is obvious to players if not to "academics".
The idea that Irish big pipes evolved into Union pipes does not hold water.
It’s a real shame that no Irish big pipes have survived and no examples of English big pipes have survived either, and they both disappear at about the same time (1750 ish).
As to the Irish big pipe repertoire, as noted above the March of the King of laose, has at least 2 pibrocks with related tunes, and there's even a tune called Washington’s March in the English Dancing Master (1657 additional tunes), which is cognate.
There are quite a few big pipe tunes still being played in Irish sessions though some of them are in disguise.
My own musical research leads me to believe that the Irish big pipes had Drone on the tonic and the fifth. This Baritone Drone might also have been tuneable to the fourth as well.
All this is speculation, but at least I play the music on a related instrument, and as academics don't seem interested in looking at the internal evidence of surviving tunes I'll have to do it myself, and not simply quote others research.

John S

[djm]

At last, a decisive link between the All-Irelands and Led Zeppelin...

Man, you had me rolling on the floor with that one!!!

Early piob mhor revivalists in late-19th-20th century Ireland were fond of playing pipes with only two drones

You might want to check out some of the many types of European bagpipes. Some sets in France are named by the length of their drones, and many sets have only one or two drones.

Janice, you might want to check the writings of Geraldus Cambrensis re. historic piping in Ireland. Also the books by Anthony Baines. I believe he is suitably academically qualified enough for your purposes. Please don't take any of this as a personal attack. Its just that there is so much more going on re. bagpipes than one might perceive from only reading Irish and Scottish sources. The video I mentioned might not be a scholarly reference, but it touches on so many potential sources of additional information that I think it would be a shame to pass by. Good luck with your paper. Break some new ground on the subject!

djm

[Cayden]

For starters maybe Sean Donnelly's little book will make good reading? Sean is the most eminent historian of matters piping.

The Early history of Piping in ireland /Sean Donnelly.- Dublin : NPU ; Glasgow : Royal Scottish Pipeband Association, 2001. - ISBN 0 9509743 9 0

[Uilliam]

[quote="Uilliam
..A good read is a booklet published by NPU Na Piobairi Uilleann Teoranta andRSPBA(NI) the Royal Scottish Pipe band Assoc.(Northern Ireland Branch)... "the Early History of Piping in Ireland" by Seán Donelly..
Uilliam [/quote]


Peter ,I have already mentioned this at the beginning of the thread see above!!! but I am glad we concur on this and indeed Seán is an expert...
Uilliam
woops I almost forgot the bibliography;This Thread,p1.Post No 9 :roll:

[janice]

Thanks all for the academic sources...always very much appreciated. Is O'Neill's book considered to be outdated then? It sounds like maybe it is...

You know-I was a bit hesitant to place that excerpt on the board, however, I figured (what the heck) if my facts were wrong I'd certainly hear about it (and maybe more reliable academic sources would appear. And they have. Thanks again). I needed the historical background to place the interviews that followed with several master upipers in context. The paper itself deals with their personal learning/teaching/gender experiences as upipers. If and when it gets published I will let you all know (if anyone is interested). It has to be academically accurate.

I do get peeved when I see individuals writing of experiences that I know they themselves have no experience of-either how something should be played when I know darn well that they can't do it themselves (or don't participate in the discussed activity etc.). Note-one can certainly be a musically knowledgable person without being a musician. As long as one presents oneself honestly, that's fine, I don't have a problem with that.

It's always a good measure of a person as to how they speak to others on a board such as this (including people who don't post often, newbies and responses to acknowledged board experts. Compare. It makes an interesting study.). You'll get a true measure of someone's character (and an insight into their board persona). Or not. Last OT highjack.

[mukade]

I certainly would not be paying too much attention to Tommy Cannon aka O'Cainainn(accordian player)

Uilliam

I often wondered what happened to him after Bobby Ball turned to Jesus.

Mukade

[Cayden]

Peter ,I have already mentioned this at the beginning of the thread see above!!! but I am glad we concur on this and indeed Seán is an expert...
:roll:

Good on you, I didn't follow the thread much and certainly not the start of it, it was the obvious reference though judging by the discussion few hear have cared to read it.

[Jim McGuire]

Thanks all for the academic sources...always very much appreciated. Is O'Neill's book considered to be outdated then? It sounds like maybe it is...

Sources like Francis O'Neill and Grattan Flood represent a good level of scholarship but have been superceded by people who have seen *more*. We do lose the first hand knowledge they seemed to have on many issues but now have so much more material (written material and the sets themselves) to see and review. The challenge is that one has to see a lot to figure this all out and travel to many locations.

[Harry]

Francis O'Niell was never a music academic. What he did was extraordinary, but it was done outside of academic circles with all the conviction of a man in love with what he was doing coupled with keen instincts for both the music and the people who played it. Do they teach that in colleges much? I'm glad that he didn't feel the need to validate his efforts academically.

He had first hand experience of traditional music, dance and song from an early age of course. It seems to have seen him through quite well... and he had sharp wits and a sense of humour, and you can't teach that as such either.

Regards,

Harry.