C'mon now. It's tough to give the quality of the final B correctly with "english" spelling in the same way that you tried with "flar."
Its got nothing to do with the final B.Ye seem to have placed an accent on the O in your version when it is an imperceptable letter O.
Piob or Phiob =Pib ,Peeb(no O sound.)Piobaire=..peeberry( no O sound..)
What do ye mean by my trying with "flar"? That is as close a pronounciation into sassenach as I can think of ,unless ye have other ideas?
Ye also seem to be having a slight problem with your English as ye quote "aglicization"in yer erm..."original" post .
Talking of which why did ye repeat what I had already said in my post?
I do hope this isn't the beginning of a trend where we all endlessly repeat one and other..
Slan Go Foill
Uilliam
PS This information is of absolutely no use to anyone other than geeks and will in no way hinder nor enhance your playing of the Piob Uilleann ...
eric wrote:> What do ye mean by my trying with "flar"?
I'm sure when you say "flar" it sounds like fleadh, but you'd be rather dismayed with the results if any north american pronounce fleadh like "flar."
Ye have a point Eric I've suggested that we call the uilleann pipes American Pipes on another thread, maybe we should call this American Gaelic?
Slan Go Foill
Uilliam
Here's an excerpt from a paper I wrote regarding upiping/issues related to upiping:
The Uilleann pipes are a fairly recent development in Irish history, having evolved from the warpipe or Piob Mar in the early 1700s (Vallely, 1999, p. 410). O'Cainainn (1978, p. 81) contends that the Irish mouth blown pipes, an antecedent to the Uilleann pipes, resembled the present warpipes of Scotland in appearance and in "the unusual tuning of the chanter." The warpipes have a long history in Ireland, with strong associations with the military. There is evidence that they were used for military purposes prior to the 14th century, as amongst the deeds of the Priory of the Holy Trinity, Dublin, are mentioned "Geoffrey the Piper," and "William the Piper," respectively (O'Neill, 1913, p. 36). Writing in 1584, Richard Stanyhurst stated the following:
"It is evident that this instrument must be a very good incentive to courage at the time of battle, for by its tones the Irish are stirred up to fight in the same manner as the soldiers of other nations by the trumpet (O'Neill, 1913, p. 41)."
Further historical evidence of the importance of the warpipes in Irish society is implied by O'Neill, who devotes a chapter of his book, "Irish Minstrels and Musicians" to pipers penalized in the 16th and 17th centuries (O'Neill, 1913, p. 56). Warpipers were considered a dangerous element in Irish society by the occupying English, as almost all of the incursions into the Pale were headed by pipers. Piping was outlawed by the English, with violaters subject to "twenty lashes on the bare back" (p. 57) or transportation to the Barbadoes. Some pipers were granted clemency, however, as O'Neill lists 41 pipers who received state pardons between 1550 and 1603.
The Uilleann pipes evolved to their present form in the early 1700s from the mouth blown warpipe (Vallely, 1999, p. 410) when a method of holding the bag with a strap that passed over the player's shoulder was invented. This playing method lead to a later development in which a (now) smaller bag could be placed under the elbow, which then administered the necessary and allowed the performer to sit while playing (O'Neill, 1913, p. 40). By the middle of the 18th century, the Uilleann pipes consisted of a bellows blown chanter and two drones (O'Canainn, 1978, p. 82), and they finally achieved their present construction of chanter, three drones and regulators at the beginning of the 19th century (Vallely, 1999, p. 410).
You would have done better to go around Vallely. Uilleann pipes come from a not so long lineage of bellows-blown pipes from 15th century France, and not much of anything to do with piob mhor. Some have noted their direct antecedent as the pastoral pipes, but it is unclear how common the pastoral pipes were. But if you're looking for a European source, start in France with the various forms of the musette. There were several later types of bellows-blown pipes in England as well as Scotland. Who knows, mayber the Irish got bellows-blown pipes from the English!!! Wouldn't that be a kicker?
djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
Really? Do you have a source? I am always appreciative of new sources, particularly as regards academic writing (and I will be submitting this paper in full to a journal-I do want to make sure my information is as correct as possible). Perhaps you could share? The information I quoted was taken from "The Companion to Irish Traditional Music," published by Cork University Press (of which Fintan Vallely was the editor). I was amiss in not naming the author of the Uillieann pipes entry, Eilis Ni Shulleabhain.
O'Neill stated much the same as Ni Shulleabhain (in Vallely) regarding the history of upipes...however, he was writing in 1913, perhaps his information is now considered to be outdated...I am aware that other countries besides Ireland have bellows-blown pipes. Here's a quote from O'Cannain:
Bellows-blown pipes exist in many countries besides Ireland - in England and France, for instance, so that the addition of the bellows does not seem to have been a peculiarly Irish contribution to pipe development (1978, p. 81).
Regarding mouth-blown pipes, he states that "there are grounds for believing that the Irish mouth-blown pipes resembled the present piob-mhor or warpipes of Scotland, not only in appearance but also, perhaps, in the unusual tuning of the chanter (The present mouth-blown pipe used in Ireland may be regarded as a revival of the Scottish instrument after the native instrument had disappeared.)." (p. 81).
When are you gonna get out to a session Dave? I noticed you had a lot of information to add to the session etiquette thread on the ITrad forum. It rather surprised me as I've never actually seen you at a session. Are you getting down to TO to play instead?
Last edited by janice on Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I agree with DJM. I think the link with the War pipes is tenuous.
There always seems to be a desire to make traditions 'ancient.' In truth, most of the music we play on the pipes is only two or three hundred years old.
The Northumbrian bagpipe traces its ancestry to the French bellows-blown musette de cour, so it is easy imagine the long French-Irish alliance created a lot of exchange between the two countries.
Furthermore, the Uilleann chanter is closer to an early oboe than to a War pipe chanter, which again suggests a link to the continent.
Its chanter is a close cousin to the original baroque oboe which developed into the modern concert oboe. Older-style uilleann pipes and baroque oboes have some similar dimensions and geometry, and their reeds are made the same way.
Hi, Janice. I'm not much for sessions (yet). Mostly I'm in TO with Debbie Quigley. Maybe I'll step out someday when I can meet my own standards ....
For references there's not much. I would suggest starting with Brendan Breathnach's writings available from NPU. Other input I have is from a Canadian video from Seabright Productions called "The Pipes, The Pipes Are Calling", as well as various NPU articles here and there, some of the slide shows presented at Chris Langan Weekends, and my own musings.
As for acada .. acdementa .. addictamics .... I don't know nuthin' bout that stuff, and don't keep track of all the hornswaggle I wade through. A lot of the Scottish stuff that is written is VERY ethnocentric, and not always reliable, and I fear that this may be what Mr. Vallely used as his sources. Perhaps Pat Hutchison might be able to give you some leads re. documentation (no, I don't have an address for him on hand), but this is very much in his area of study.
Sorry I can't be of much more help.
djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
If you're gonna question the validity of any academic information (which happens all the time in academia) then ya gotta give sources to support your argument, and those same sources should be academic in nature not just "I saw a slide show...and this is what I think, and maybe you should talk to Pat Hutchinson etc.. You are, after all, entitled to your opinion (this is the internet after all, you can believe whatever you want to believe and say whatever you want to say without backing up what you say!). Check my earlier post...Not only is the book I quoted from a respected academic publisher (Cork University Press), F. Vallely was the editor. The actual entry was written by Eilis Ni Shulleabhain.
And thanks for the recommendation, I am aware of Brendan Breathnach's scholarly contributions...
I highly recommend you read O'Neill's book...for anyone interested in Irish trad and particularly in the Uilleann pipes it makes for a fascinating read. (I got it on Jerry O'Sullivan's recommendation).
How often do you get down to TO? I haven't heard you play in two years...can you get through a tune yet in time without stopping? I know Debbie's a great teacher and I bet that she's really helped you along in that department.
djm wrote:Baglady, sorry if I hit a nerve. This is not the place to be if you're going to get touchy. I was not specifically referring to your event (I've never been to Minnesota).
Are you uncomfortable with my agressive debateing style? I'll try to use more smiley faces from now on. But being a 'woman of a certain age' I haven't time to mince words any more.
djm wrote:
It would be nice to see GHBs vindicated somehow as being part of the Irish cultural landscape, but how do you explain an Irish festival with a big pipe and drum corp thundering up to the main stands blazing out "Scotland the Brave"?
djm
It's hard to come up with all of the dosh it takes to keep a band outfitted so ya take the gigs when you can get them. Cultural sensitivity aside.
And let's be honest, all of these 'cultural' festivals are in it for the money anyway.
Baglady
Put the music under thier feet and lift them to the dance.
Oh, and,
"If you want to play chords, use standard tuning. It is better." --Martin Carthy
Joseph E. Smith wrote:From my experience, I recall the Brian Boru Pipe Band sticking to Irish tunes for the most part. The Minnesota Pipes and Drums, is a different story altogether.
And so my comment about pretenders.
Baglady
Put the music under thier feet and lift them to the dance.
Oh, and,
"If you want to play chords, use standard tuning. It is better." --Martin Carthy
tommykleen wrote:Thanks for weighing in Baglady. I was hoping I would draw you out at some point. It's true, the Brian Boru pipeband is woven into the warp and the woof of Irish culture in these parts...has been for as long as I can remember. Were I to actually listen to your repetoire I might gleen some Irish tunes out of it. I see a pipeband coming and , if I am not in the mood for a pipeband, I withdraw into my shell.
Follow up: So are kilts Irish too? I get the feeling that a big part of being in a pipeband is that you get to play dressup. Isn't that what Renaissance Festivals are for?
t
Oh, we are cheeky aren't we. The Great Pipes are in your blood or they are not. Some say it might be a genetic marker of some kind.
Kilts in saffron are thought by some to be a poke in the ribs to the British military and a thumbed nose at QE One's law against the very Irish wearing of the saffron. But aside from that, kilts in tweeds and solid colors are seen in other Irish cultural areas such as danceing.
I am drawn to the ceremony of the Piob Mhor and the wearing of the kilt, as uncomfortable as it is, is a big part of the tradition for which I have great respect.
Baglady
Put the music under thier feet and lift them to the dance.
Oh, and,
"If you want to play chords, use standard tuning. It is better." --Martin Carthy
Harry wrote:The 'fladh'? A relaxed conversation on formal competiton in traditional music? I'd better stay where I am then!
Harry.
Unfortunately, competition is firmly with us. A fine young Piob Mhor musician was not allowed to play with the Chieftains in concert here recently because he hasn't competed and has only a grade IV rateing. A grade I scottish piper got the job and botched it royal.
Baglady
Put the music under thier feet and lift them to the dance.
Oh, and,
"If you want to play chords, use standard tuning. It is better." --Martin Carthy
Janice wrote:If you're gonna question the validity of any academic information (which happens all the time in academia) then ya gotta give sources to support your argument
No, you don't, actually. Just because someone has some letters after their name doesn't mean squat, and since I am not a member of such establishment means I am not a slave to their rules. You will probably find that neither O'Neill or Vallely even acknowlegde that there are pipes of any kind outside of Ireland and Scotland, and that's enough for me know that their range is too limited and self-justifying. By not acknowledging the history of bellows-blown pipes in any country outside of Ireland or Scotland one doesn't have to explain why those show up long before UPs or NSPs, etc. Who is Eilis Ni Shulleabhain, and what is her qualification to be quoted, and what, if any, is her proof, or is it all just supposition, which makes her no more justified than me?
I've read references to Liverpool smallpipes. There's probably a whole history of bellows-blown pipes that lies waiting to be discovered outside of just Ireland and Scotland. I have even seen suggestions that the French got the idea of bellows-blown pipes from the Moors in Spain, which might explain the Arabesque stylings of early musettes, but also opens the possibility that bellows-blown pipes came from the Middle East. Since you are an academic I'm sure you have investigated bellows-blown pipes in the Middle East and know all about it.
djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
That is as close a pronounciation into sassenach as I can think of ,unless ye have other ideas? 
But being a 'woman of a certain age' I haven't time to mince words any more. 
