Chiff and Fipple Forums

Chadd wrote:My first chanter was a narrow bore D 1999 Koehler & Quinn student practice set, which had no scalloping. When my 2002 K&Q concert half set arrived, the first thing that struck me about the chanter was how comfortable it was to hold compared to the other. The holes are moderately scalloped at an angle that is appropriate for each individual finger of a right-handed player. I wouldn't say that it makes the holes easer to cover, but it certainly makes it more comfortable to play, especially for long periods of time, with no sore red circles worn into the pads of my fingers. That said, I would agree that it's a matter of personal preference and I could certainly understand someone wanting the feedback of the sharp edges of the holes.

By moderately scalloped you probably mean, if you could have seen the chanter new off the lathe, that the scalloping doesn't extend below the lowest rim of any of the holes as originally drilled. If you look at a chanter sideways, you'll see that the holes (big D holes anyway) form a crescent or depression from the top surface. If you contour the chanter so the fingers lay in playing position along the troughs you make (scallops) you in effect increase the seal width significantly without lowering chimney height. This also makes a difference in sliding and thumbwork, as the fingers do not catch the edges of the holes as they slide.

This is entirely different than mindlessly sanding actual scallops on all the holes as viewed from the side regardless of finger positon. Fingers most helped in sealing by contouring are probably C and back D.

Royce

Royce, that slight scoop you refer to at C and back D may be true for playability, but not all makers do it (scalloping). Some makers will slightly flatten the front side of the chanter to make it easier to stop up the holes. But some makers, like Cillian O'Brien, routinely take great big scoops out of the chanter at each hole. Mind you, such chanters are squarish rather than round, and much heavier than other, thinner, rounder chanters, too.

djm

djm wrote:Royce, that slight scoop you refer to at C and back D may be true for playability, but not all makers do it (scalloping). Some makers will slightly flatten the front side of the chanter to make it easier to stop up the holes. But some makers, like Cillian O'Brien, routinely take great big scoops out of the chanter at each hole. Mind you, such chanters are squarish rather than round, and much heavier than other, thinner, rounder chanters, too.

djm

I've seen a lot of old Rowsomes and Taylors that have that very noticeable scalloping. I don't really like the feel, and often they're directed in the wrong angle on C and B and A for the way I or others might hold the chanter. That's a very individulized bit of finishing and a maker would be crazy to do it unless based on the individualized player.

The other thing you mention I've seen as well, with a big flat divot arced out the back D in particular. Keenan and the Koeler/Quinn chanters I've seen have that. But it's obviously something you can only do if there's a bit of wood on the chanter in the first place, ending up at about the same chimney height you would if the whole shaft had started thinner and not been scalloped or flattened. That really flat back D is very very comfortable for me anyway. C is also easier for me with a flattened trough, though I have mine angled to follow the finger's angle and bend. My C ends up wanting to fall into a crook/wringle near a joint and doesn't like to seal very well on a dead-round shaft with sharp edges on the hole.

Royce

A reallyscalloped chanter:



OK, it's not exactly the sort of chanter we're discussing here, but it serves to illustrate a point; it's extremely easy to finger this chanter, even after making Lorenzo's fruitcake.

-Jonathan-

Royce wrote: The other thing you mention I've seen as well, with a big flat divot arced out the back D in particular. Royce

My Brian Howard chanter (concert D) also has this

S

Royce wrote:By moderately scalloped you probably mean...

It just means that I've seen pictures of chanters with more wood removed around the holes than mine has. Here is a picture where you can see the angle of the chanter's outer surface shaping around the 3 upper holes compared to the lower 4.
http://www.concentric.net/~pdarcy/photo ... 1603_7.jpg

Jumper wrote:A reallyscalloped chanter:



OK, it's not exactly the sort of chanter we're discussing here, but it serves to illustrate a point; it's extremely easy to finger this chanter, even after making Lorenzo's fruitcake.

-Jonathan-

It's gotta be SWEDISH.

Royce

Bringing the scalloped tone hole topic back to life...



Childress does a back D scallop that's very comfortable, not too deep.

A friend of mine has a scalloped chanter, I tried it, and liked it, it felt very comfortable to me, and since my pipes needed a new reed I asked the pipe maker if he would scallop mine. He said "no" (I think he was concerned about altering another pipe makers work) I wasn't concerned because I didn't think the chanter was a very good one. But the chanter sounded fine when I got it back. So I decided to sand in the scallops myself and I did. After cleaning out the sawdust, and waxing the chanter (I was thinking to myself, these pipes might not play, but they sure look good) I tried them and they sounded as good as before. I would not recommend doing this, too many things could go wrong, I was lucky. I guessed where I should sand, and how deep, I hoped sanding would not alter the sound, it didn't, but I was prepared for the worse and to accept responsibility for what I was doing. I don't think now that I can feel that much difference.

I recently voiced (tuned) a Rowsome chanter copy in D. The maker is not a piper nor could he make reeds. It played easily in tune with itself at about A=453, which is about the London Philharmonic pitch standard at the early part of the 20th century. With advice from experienced makers, I attempted the job. By using a longer reed I set the bottom D to pitch based on A=440. This gave a result of the chanter going flat, particularly in the upper hand. I had done a bit of undercutting to start as the maker had done none at all. I was faced with the problem of raising the pitch of the upper hand notes. Undercutting is one approach for the job, but undercutting would raise the overall pitch of the chanter due to increasing the the overall volume of the bore. I needed to drop the overall pitch. I was advised to scallop the outside of the chanter, more particularly increasingly deeper scallops as I went up from the bottom. The effect was that the individual notes were raised in pitch due to the shorter chimney heights. The other result was of dropping the pitch of the chanter overall, due to decreasing the total bore volume by the scalloping. This, in combination with further undercutting was how I brought the chanter to be well in tune with itself at A=440. I was fortunate to have not ruined the damn thing. Some scalloping of early chanters may have been due to the maker trying to bring chanters originally designed for higher pitch into the modern pitch standard. Another effect was a brighter sound, due to the shortened chimney heights. I was successful due to having professional maker friends to call on when I was uncertain of what I was doing. The chanter went to its new owner who is very pleased with the result. Bottom line is that scalloping will affect the tuning and should not be attempted by those unfamiliar with the process, or without someone to call on who has done this job before. I have seen more than one chanter ruined by pipers who wanted scalloping on their chanters and tackled the job without realizing what they were doing. I learned a lot from the process but would only do it again under duress. I drank more per day while doing it and would probably end up a blithering drunken idiot if I tried it full-time. It increased my respect for the pipemakers who understand the process and can produce in tune instruments.

Ted

Ted, you can see now how lucky I was. I might be off on some of my notes, if I am I can't hear them. I am a new piper but I sound in tune with my practice video and I play alone. When and if I get to play with someone else I'll know soon enough. I suppose I could take my tuner and ck my pipes but since I'm so new to piping I don't know if my air pressure is correct.

James,

If you didn't scallop very deeply, you probably didn't change the tuning much other than to maybe slightly lower overall pitch which might only require slightly moving the reed into the socket.

RESIST the temptation of using an electronic tuner to check out a chanters tuning. You will not recieve the best information. Unless you record something at playing pressure, sample the notes and check the tuning as played musically, using a tuner will only cloud the issue. It is when playing to the tuner that you will have a tendency to vary the pressure and therefore the tuning of individual notes. The best thing to use a tuner for is to tune your drones to it and check the chanter against the drones. This requires some ear training and experience to tell how in/out of tune it is.

Same goes for regulators. I have seen pipers tune individual notes with the tuner only to sound out of tune when actually playing. A trained ear will recognize any out of tuneness of individual notes while playing, and adjustments can be made to bring those notes into tune. Some of the best pipers are playing out of tune antiques that they make play in tune, compensating by changing pressure and driving it into tune or shading tone holes as needed.

Ted

Ted wrote:RESIST the temptation of using an electronic tuner to check out a chanters tuning. You will not recieve the best information. Unless you record something at playing pressure, sample the notes and check the tuning as played musically, using a tuner will only cloud the issue. It is when playing to the tuner that you will have a tendency to vary the pressure and therefore the tuning of individual notes. The best thing to use a tuner for is to tune your drones to it and check the chanter against the drones. This requires some ear training and experience to tell how in/out of tune it is.

Good post! Last year I tried to explain this on the equal vs. just temperament scale...the difference in pressure having a greater effect than the difference in temperament scales themselves. Always appreciate your expert advice.

djm wrote:Elbogo, tartar sauce? What would the Russians know of the real scallopini?

I prefer my pini unscalloped.

Royce

reviving an old discussion.