Chiff and Fipple Forums

Hello brain trust:

I am curious about your recommendations on makers of flat, full sets of pipes who are: currently making pipes, taking orders with a reasonable wait, and charging fairly normal prices.

Obviously, there are wonderful flat set makers including on this forum who don’t fit this mould, including of course Geoff Wooff (closed books and justifiably high prices- its the dream of course but not open to me now I fear!), or Derrick Gleeson- wonderful pipes at, again, justifiably high prices.

I am curious as to those in the more conventional price tier. Sam Lawrence would be a great option but his books are closed (at least for now). David Goldsworthy is I think only doing flat half sets so far. Brad Angus perhaps, though a bit more expensive it seems.

Rogge is a well regarded option of course. Arie de Keyzer would seem to fit the bill (and I would be very keen to hear thoughts on his pipes, as they seem great value and well made- any thought very welcome).

Anyone else?

Ta.

Can I say that my books are not closed.... they are just not OPEN.

I would add Joe Kennedy to your list

geoff wooff wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:03 am Can I say that my books are not closed.... they are just not OPEN.

Aye, but closed to me and my meagre talents. And rightfully so.

Unless, that is…… (I’m kidding and please don’t, I don’t have the dosh anyway)

I'd add 2 more to your list: Bill Haneman and Jimmy O'Brien-Moran, who is making lovely flat sets.

geoff wooff wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:03 am Can I say that my books are not closed.... they are just not OPEN.

Sounds like a bar in Kyoto Geoff! First time, no entry….

Hope you’re keeping well over there, although no real help to the OP of the thread, I harassed Mr Gleeson for a few days a while back in Coore, he’s making some beautiful things in that shop.

Cheers,
Liam

Hi Liam,
keeping well here thanks.

Indeed Derrick is making some very fine Flat sets.
Hope all is well with you.
Geoff.

I have a question about the pitches of flat sets being made today.

Are there makers who make their flat chanters in "B" a true Concert B natural?

Who make their flat chanters in "C" a true Concert C natural?

Or are makers basing their chanters on antique chanters which play where they're happiest playing, which might or might not correspond to our modern pitches?

My C chanters whilst being based on an ancient chanter it happens to be happy playing in modern C.

My B chanters , based on a Coyne model tend to prefer to play 30- 40 cents flat of modern B although they can be reeded to play in A440hz. pitch.

The C#'s prefer to stay 25 -40 cents flat of A440hz.

The Bb's , based on an Egan set are happier slightly above modern Bb but are not difficult to reed in Bb ( at A440hz.)

However, is the reason a piper would want a set in C or Bb to play in modern pitch so that they can join with other instruments ? Many ( or most) 'other' instruments will be tuned to Equal Temperament and that may cause some pitch clashes where a chanter is tuned to a sweet interval scale. Concertina and Pipes is a tricky duet and on several occasions I have re-tuned a concertina to improve the situation.

It is also possible to produce the older 19th century style chanters in such a way that many notes can be adjusted in pitch with alterations of fingering.

To take this back to the original question,

Try to hunt out a chanter in your desired pitch. You’re then on the “flat” road. Assuming alls well, put your name down, save your coins, and before you know it you’ll wonder what happened to your life and you’re off to visit a maker and collect the new set.

I always loved B, was lucky enough to get a great chanter, played it for a while, decided B was in fact for me, put my name down. Pretty sure that was a 5yr wait. Worth every minute!

Cheers,
Liam

geoff wooff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:05 am My C chanters, whilst being based on an ancient chanter, happen to be happy playing in modern C.

My B chanters, based on a Coyne, tend to prefer to play 30-40 cents flat of modern B, although they can be reeded to play in A440 pitch.

The C#'s prefer to stay 25-40 cents flat of A440.

The Bb's, based on an Egan, are happier slightly above modern Bb but are not difficult to reed in Bb in A440 pitch.

Thanks for that specificity!! It's exactly what I was wondering about.

geoff wooff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:05 am Is the reason a piper would want a set in C or Bb to play in modern pitch so that they can join with other instruments? Many (or most) other instruments will be tuned to Equal Temperament...

My "D" chanter (an old Quinn) and my "C" chanter (Boston Uilleann Pipe Works) both play precisely in Equal Temperament. They need to, because I use them mainly for studio work and orchestra or Pipe Organ gigs.

My C chanter plays perfectly until you get up higher in the 2nd octave, where it's not tuned well enough to use. It's nice to know that high-quality Concert-Pitch C chanters are being made by yourself.

Rogge seems to have gained a reputation, many highly regarded pipers are playing his pipes as well, if it’s good enough for them then there is definitely something to be said.


I have a C sharp Rogge full set on the way, based off of the Ennis Coyne with some modifications of course, so it will be it’s own sound. Though I wonder, if I could ever coax That sound out of them…

pancelticpiper wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:16 am

geoff wooff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:05 am My C chanters, whilst being based on an ancient chanter, happen to be happy playing in modern C.

My B chanters, based on a Coyne, tend to prefer to play 30-40 cents flat of modern B, although they can be reeded to play in A440 pitch.

The C#'s prefer to stay 25-40 cents flat of A440.

The Bb's, based on an Egan, are happier slightly above modern Bb but are not difficult to reed in Bb in A440 pitch.

Thanks for that specificity!! It's exactly what I was wondering about.

geoff wooff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:05 am Is the reason a piper would want a set in C or Bb to play in modern pitch so that they can join with other instruments? Many (or most) other instruments will be tuned to Equal Temperament...

My "D" chanter (an old Quinn) and my "C" chanter (Boston Uilleann Pipe Works) both play precisely in Equal Temperament. They need to, because I use them mainly for studio work and orchestra or Pipe Organ gigs.

My C chanter plays perfectly until you get up higher in the 2nd octave, where it's not tuned well enough to use. It's nice to know that high-quality Concert-Pitch C chanters are being made by yourself.

I must clarify here Richard, that I do not make chanters in Equal Temperament if I can possibly help it but provide alternative fingering abilities so that there are more ways, more tones, more subtle pitches for many notes so that the piper can play well in tune with the drones or blend notes into ET tunings.

That the upper notes on your C chanter are not well tuned may be due to the ET tuning of the lower octave; for instance if the B in the lower ocatve is at zero on the ET scale then the upper B may well be quite sharp and would call for an alternate fingering. I prefer to keep the low octave B at 15-16 cents flat of zero ET so it harmonises well with the drones... upper B can then be held down to a useable pitch.
I see the pipes as a solo instrument and strive for a vocality closer to that of Seamus Ennis.

In my experience people tend to make the ET/JI difference bigger than it is.

My Quinn chanter sounded well in tune with the drones, yet could be played every note needle-straight-up ET.

This only took subtle adjustments in blowing which I did without having to think about it.

The bigger issue had nothing to do with the ET/JI thing, rather it was the pitch differential between low-octave E and 2nd-octave E.

I placed E in the middle, and "shaded" it in the low octave and gave it a slight pressure boost in the 2nd octave.

geoff wooff wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:06 am I see the pipes as a solo instrument and strive for a vocality closer to that of Seamus Ennis.

'
Indeed, as do I. I would also say that the quintessential pipe sound would be that 'Ennis tone.' He really knew how to make the pipes sound 'alive', imho.