f on the tenor flat
- Christian Tietje
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- Tell us something.: I'm an Uilleann Piper since 1985 and before piping a Flute-Player since 1977. Beside thits I played German Pipes in German Folk Music and I play and sing to the Guitar.
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f on the tenor flat
Dear all,
does anybody know how to lift the f on the tenor reg? On both sets the f is flat. On the concert set it is nearly low as f natural. On the b-set a bit flat, not too bad, but not good. I've tried cork or wax at the bottom, above the hole, bridle shifting. Bothing really lifts the note.
does anybody know how to lift the f on the tenor reg? On both sets the f is flat. On the concert set it is nearly low as f natural. On the b-set a bit flat, not too bad, but not good. I've tried cork or wax at the bottom, above the hole, bridle shifting. Bothing really lifts the note.
Christian Tietje
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Re: f on the tenor flat
Christian,
have you tried changing the 'stopped length' of the air column ? If you have tried to shorten this by fitting a cork to the tuning pin to block the bore and make it shorter and it did not work , you could try making the bore longer. This can sometimes change the tuning of some notes which can make it easier to bring the whole scale to where you want it.
Another idea; if you have minimised any 'rushing' or wires with wax to bring down the pitch of notes further up the bore and still find your F's ( F#'s actually) too flat..; then try making the F# hole smaller... this will raise the pitch of that note ,sometimes quite considerably.
Of course, similar action , of changing the note hole sizes with tape or wax, can be used on the other notes in an attempt to minimise the amount of 'rush' in the bore which may help overcome the flat F# problem.
You could also try a reed with a different staple diameter; smaller diameter will raise the overall pitch of the scale and larger diameter will lower the pitches.... all is relative and your results may differ.
Good luck.
have you tried changing the 'stopped length' of the air column ? If you have tried to shorten this by fitting a cork to the tuning pin to block the bore and make it shorter and it did not work , you could try making the bore longer. This can sometimes change the tuning of some notes which can make it easier to bring the whole scale to where you want it.
Another idea; if you have minimised any 'rushing' or wires with wax to bring down the pitch of notes further up the bore and still find your F's ( F#'s actually) too flat..; then try making the F# hole smaller... this will raise the pitch of that note ,sometimes quite considerably.
Of course, similar action , of changing the note hole sizes with tape or wax, can be used on the other notes in an attempt to minimise the amount of 'rush' in the bore which may help overcome the flat F# problem.
You could also try a reed with a different staple diameter; smaller diameter will raise the overall pitch of the scale and larger diameter will lower the pitches.... all is relative and your results may differ.
Good luck.
Re: f on the tenor flat
Are you sure that the F# isn't collapsing under pressure? What happens if you ease off? If that helps, then you need a stiffer reed or to open or clip the existing reed. As Geoff says, if you raise the pitch of every note, then flatten everything except the F# that will help. It is an annoyance, as it would be better for this last note to be sharp as it can be flattened without unduly affecting the others.
I find that the A on the tenor definitely raises in pitch with a smaller hole. I haven't noticed it on the F# on my design, but I'm sure it happens.
I find that the A on the tenor definitely raises in pitch with a smaller hole. I haven't noticed it on the F# on my design, but I'm sure it happens.
" . . . when it's finished you look at it and you think that perhaps it will live longer than you, and perhaps it will be of use to someone you don't know, who doesn't know you. Maybe as an old man you'll be able to . . look at it, and it will seem beautiful . . "
Primo Levi - The Wrench
Primo Levi - The Wrench
- boyd
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Re: f on the tenor flat
Is it just my stupid brain....I have always reduced hole size (via tape or wax) to flatten individual notes.
Here you are saying it will raise the pitch?
Here you are saying it will raise the pitch?
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....nobody said this would be easy......
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....nobody said this would be easy......
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Re: f on the tenor flat
Yep, there are anomalies on the regs. F# on the Bari sometimes, more often (invariably in fact) for me A on the tenor.
" . . . when it's finished you look at it and you think that perhaps it will live longer than you, and perhaps it will be of use to someone you don't know, who doesn't know you. Maybe as an old man you'll be able to . . look at it, and it will seem beautiful . . "
Primo Levi - The Wrench
Primo Levi - The Wrench
Re: f on the tenor flat
To be clear, only referring to hole size. Wax in the bore always flattens, but as Geoff says changing the volume of the chamber below the F# can affect stuff, mainly the F#, I think. I don't do this, but look at Cillian's regs, they have a moveable plunger. It works alright!
" . . . when it's finished you look at it and you think that perhaps it will live longer than you, and perhaps it will be of use to someone you don't know, who doesn't know you. Maybe as an old man you'll be able to . . look at it, and it will seem beautiful . . "
Primo Levi - The Wrench
Primo Levi - The Wrench
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Re: f on the tenor flat
boyd wrote:Is it just my stupid brain....I have always reduced hole size (via tape or wax) to flatten individual notes.
Here you are saying it will raise the pitch?
Some note holes respond to being made smaller by raising the note pitch and F# can be one of them both on a chanter and a regulator .. "can" not "does".... whilst changing the size of holes they can also be moved, but that is more in the domain of the pipemaker and during the developement stages.
Lengths of stopped pipes need to be focussed... it is akin to moving the bridge on a fiddle, in some ways. Once a workable length has been found it is normally sufficient to retain that dimension in all future editions of the part.
When an obvious, or logical, cure for a problem does not result in a fix , try the opposite. time and time again this has worked for me.
Of course, if these cures do not produce a satisfactory result then the Pipemaker needs to be consulted, as one would imagine that the sets should have been 'in tune' when new!
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- Tell us something.: Hi i would li,e to help fellow pipers with any questions about their chanters drones and regulators and reedmaking as i have been making pipes for a while without a website for other irish musicians and friends and alao word of mouth,but ill be putting a website up soon.
Re: f on the tenor flat
Hi Tietje,my name is jay and im new here and have read all the replies to your tennor regultors problem with f# bieng flat.it seems as though youve havent been able to fix it? If im wrong sorry,but it seems to be a reed slash tone hole problem.if the reeds lips (tip) arent strong enough or have been sanded too much then this can flatten the top note (ie:like a chanters back "d" note)
Ive been making (just word of mouth friends and friends of friends ect) repairing quietly and playing pipes for 16yrs.
My humble advise after reading the replies is this......you may need to send your tennor reg to its maker for a new reed,and this shouldnt cost you unless you have altered the reed in some way or modified the actual regulator.
If the pipemaker wants to charge you then its up to you to pay for it or even another pipemaker could fix it.
The last resort (and im not saying you have to do this is take the key off and measure the tone holes inside diameter (or size) and get a drill bit that is only .5mm larger and drill the hole carefully,if it needs more then go another .5mm larger u till you get it in tune.regulators arent like chanters because it has stopped end with a tuning rod and doesnt need the second octave ,so there easier to fix.....all the best Jay
Ive been making (just word of mouth friends and friends of friends ect) repairing quietly and playing pipes for 16yrs.
My humble advise after reading the replies is this......you may need to send your tennor reg to its maker for a new reed,and this shouldnt cost you unless you have altered the reed in some way or modified the actual regulator.
If the pipemaker wants to charge you then its up to you to pay for it or even another pipemaker could fix it.
The last resort (and im not saying you have to do this is take the key off and measure the tone holes inside diameter (or size) and get a drill bit that is only .5mm larger and drill the hole carefully,if it needs more then go another .5mm larger u till you get it in tune.regulators arent like chanters because it has stopped end with a tuning rod and doesnt need the second octave ,so there easier to fix.....all the best Jay
Re: f on the tenor flat
Whoa! Never ever make any permanent alteration to your pipes. Send them back to the maker; or an expert, if the maker is no longer with us; or leave them absolutely alone. So many sets have been ruined by suffering alterations made by those who did not know what they were doing because they did not know how the pipes in hand worked in the first place. (BTW, I am assuming that the flatness of the F# you refer to is flat of Just Intonation, which is noticeably flat of Equal Temperament, anyway.)
- Christian Tietje
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- Tell us something.: I'm an Uilleann Piper since 1985 and before piping a Flute-Player since 1977. Beside thits I played German Pipes in German Folk Music and I play and sing to the Guitar.
- Location: Seligenstadt (Germany)
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Re: f on the tenor flat
sackcloth and ashes! I'm such a silly fool. It seems that I (myself!) had filled some wax at the top edge of the hole to flatten the f down to test Just Intonation. It was very very flat. Flatter than Just Intonation, nearly f nat. I might have forgot it and found it today with the intention to test the recommendations above. Sorry for my question. Never come back again ...
Christian Tietje
- billh
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Re: f on the tenor flat
Glad it's sorted!Christian Tietje wrote:sackcloth and ashes! I'm such a silly fool. It seems that I (myself!) had filled some wax at the top edge of the hole to flatten the f down to test Just Intonation. It was very very flat. Flatter than Just Intonation, nearly f nat. I might have forgot it and found it today with the intention to test the recommendations above. Sorry for my question. Never come back again ...
Geoff and Sam are of course right; while enlarging a regulator hole can sometimes raise the pitch, it can also flatten it in some situations. The tenor A and baritone F# are particularly susceptible to this, and there are few regulator encounters more tragic than seeing an F# hole that has been enlarged more and more desperately in an attempt to sharpen it!
- B
- Christian Tietje
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- Tell us something.: I'm an Uilleann Piper since 1985 and before piping a Flute-Player since 1977. Beside thits I played German Pipes in German Folk Music and I play and sing to the Guitar.
- Location: Seligenstadt (Germany)
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Re: f on the tenor flat
... and at my flat set, which f on the tenor was also a bit flat I have placed a small piece of cork below the hole on the rush wire which raised the tone to a wonderful Just Intonation. No hole drilling or enlarging.
Christian Tietje