What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

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Kevin L. Rietmann
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Re: What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

Post by Kevin L. Rietmann »

Egan I just singled out what with the received wisdom about his pipes being ever so slightly louder than other classic flat set makers. Maybe it would be better to speak of bore/hole sizes, the bells for instance - 11, 12.5, 14. 16? :shock: Haven't thought about those metric sizes in a while. I think 16 would be gaita time, perhaps?

Anyway, yes, reeds, my own concert set is not a blaster despite being a Rowsome copy with Taylor type chanter with 12.5 bell and medium size holes. If I jacked up the pressure I could drown out the rest but that's not for me.

Once played a few with Joey Arbata after a house concert and couldn't hear note one out of the fellow with the red badge B/C Paolo across the circle, which I found quite amusing. But then Joey can drown anyone out I think.

Back to my original point, if I had one, is that what I'd like to hear more of is a set with the big bore/holes that still has some richness in its sound - and works well, no autocrans with light pressure. That would be up to polished complex bore, voiced toneholes, voiced drone bores, etc. According to the received wisdom anyway. It's been done a few times successfully. But few seem to go to the bother.

There were things in the Rowsome sound I quite like too - the bass regulator on my concert really sounds Leo/Willie somehow. Intangible things I guess. And their sets had those sounds whereas so many modern ones don't, despite being ostensible Rowsome knockoffs. Funny how that works.
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Re: What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

Post by Murk »

Kevin L. Rietmann wrote:There were things in the Rowsome sound I quite like too - the bass regulator on my concert really sounds Leo/Willie somehow. Intangible things I guess. And their sets had those sounds whereas so many modern ones don't, despite being ostensible Rowsome knockoffs. Funny how that works.
I have to admit, I started this thread mainly because I though it had a relatively simple answer - and did not expect a discussion of this magnitude. I'm surprised that the opinions of Leo's pipes are so polarized.

Kevin, you seem to be on the more negative end of the scale. I'm curious if there's an aspect of the Rowsome chanter sound that you do enjoy? Something they do (did/can do) particularly well? Are there certain adjectives you would attach to the tone of a chanter like this? I realize some people gravitate toward a narrow bore sound - but I'm interested in what those with this NB preference attach mentally/emotionally to a wider bore sound.

I find this discussion fascinating - even if I myself am more appreciative of concert style chanters.
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jpiper
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Tell us something.: Hi i would li,e to help fellow pipers with any questions about their chanters drones and regulators and reedmaking as i have been making pipes for a while without a website for other irish musicians and friends and alao word of mouth,but ill be putting a website up soon.

Re: What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

Post by jpiper »

Bieng a pipemaker i believe most what has been said on the forum about rowesome style chaters and coyne/egan pipes.
The out of tune E's bieng out of tu e is pretty much the case if you are making decent reeds and have copied a rowesome bore/reamer and tone hole positions ect...you will find the E's will be out of intonation and the high B is usually a bit sharp with some of his chanters.
The solution to the E problem is that the (ghost d) or e flat note of the chanter can be reduced by 1mm or more and definately brings the e's into tune in both octaves.
Rowesomes e flat tone hole is around the 6mm size and i was looking ata coyne c# chanter and noticed that the e flate tone hole was smaller than the E note.some pipers noticed this but i thought it was really interesting and incorporated it into my own chanter design and it worked.....really well.
So now my D chanters for a long time have had 4.8mm e flate tone hole and no more E problems ☺ hope iive helped
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Mr.Gumby
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Re: What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

Post by Mr.Gumby »

So now my D chanters for a long time have had 4.8mm e flate tone hole and no more E problems
How's the one finger off, off the knee E doing?

I remember trying out a chanter for a student at a pipemaker's workshop trying to play the off the knee E (knowing the general type off the design he used has a tendency not to be able to sound it because the secobnd hole from the bottom didn't allow enough venting). It didn't work. 'I never heard anyone try that' he said. Hmmm...
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geoff wooff
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Re: What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

Post by geoff wooff »

Kevin L. Rietmann wrote:Egan I just singled out what with the received wisdom about his pipes being ever so slightly louder than other classic flat set makers.

Ah "received wisdom"... yes .. there's a lot of that about these day and no cure has yet been found. I guess we all will suffer from that malady to some extent. Regarding Egan chanters being somewhat louder than others... i wonder where that came from ? Perhaps we can go back as far as Francis O'Neill's writtings where he speaks of Coyne sets being of neat workmanship but quieter in tone... in comparison to what ? The Taylor sets he was more accustomed to perhaps ?

I have even suggested that Egan was trying to increase the power of his chanters... now how can that be if I've almost never heard one going ? Well... I did play Dan O'Dowd's Egan set but Dan did not use the original chanter... he said it was too harsh. We can choose to believe that or imagine that the original had been 'improved' during its long life thus rendering it unplayable... or perhaps it was not in a suitable pitch for Dan . It would be good to hear from someone who has seen or examined the original chanter.

I did examine an almost mint condition Egan chanter some dozen or more years back and I do recall that it was a wee bit larger in the bore... my 'normal' reeds did not make it play well. Another Egan C chanter that I have measurements is very similar to my Harrington, not that I have had the oportunity to try that one. Trying one's standard reed in a supposedly similar chanter is a quick reference as to the design . I recall my Harrington chanter reed playing almost perfectly well in a Coyne C chanter belonging to Martin Roachford.

The 18" Egan that John Wayland took to Australia in 1911 was the subject of my early attempts to reproduce these ' flat sets'... my current opinion is that the chanter fits nicely into my general family model for the genre.. Recent , better, bore measurements have been made by a piper on the ground in West Australia but I have yet to find the time to organise the data. However, I don't see the Wayland Egan as showing signs of increasing power attempts by the maker. It is probably an early-ish example of Egan's work.

But coming back to the Rowsome model; Of course, Ted, the reed does have a large effect on everything. I am thinking of Leo's pre-war recordings and how sweet his set sounds, notwithstanding the differences in recording equipment. He comfortably plays tunes with regulator accompaniment in both octave and a fine balance he gets too. There are those today who like to play such a strong chanter reed that it is almost impossible to use the regulators when the chanter is in the upper register.
Last edited by geoff wooff on Wed May 04, 2016 7:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
geoff wooff
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Re: What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

Post by geoff wooff »

Mr.Gumby wrote:
So now my D chanters for a long time have had 4.8mm e flate tone hole and no more E problems
How's the one finger off, off the knee E doing?

I remember trying out a chanter for a student at a pipemaker's workshop trying to play the off the knee E (knowing the general type off the design he used has a tendency not to be able to sound it because the secobnd hole from the bottom didn't allow enough venting). It didn't work. 'I never heard anyone try that' he said. Hmmm...
Perhaps more importantly, as J has made the lowest hole smaller, how does the Ghost D work ?

Usually with woodwinds ( flute and Oboe types) it is necessary to open the Eb key when playing certain notes and particularly noticeable for the second octave E which benefits from this extra venting by sharpening the E's natural harmonics and thus brings the note into line.
Kevin L. Rietmann
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Re: What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

Post by Kevin L. Rietmann »

Oh, I'm mostly received wisdom, first to admit it. I just find this all A Fascinating Hobby, like the man said. The main thing with these old flat sets is that at their best they just sound fantastic, I'd like more of that in concert pitch + wide bore stuff.

I'd figure if anybody had played a wide selection of Egans it'd be you, Geoff. Interesting that the bit about a decibel or two more coming out of them, in theory anyway, isn't really the case. Maybe Ken McLeod suggested that somewhere? Among other grand notions I think it'd be really worthwhile to accurately document these old pipes in detail, that would be money well spent eh, government grants and so on. Maybe NPU have managed to do that a bit. I see the plans available on their website.

Leo post-war sounded great, too, listen to his 1966 EP. Very warm chanter tone, working nigh unto perfectly too. People who had the honor of playing his pipes tell me they fairly played themselves. Willie's moving away from the Taylor type Blast-O-Matic regulators was the way to go, too.

We've all heard Leo's chanters struggling to play in A=440 though, Willie Clancy's snarling high E and motorboat hard D. Or was that the Taylor? Probably the same solution to either maker's stuff, play it in Eb. The alternative is to make these canoe paddle reeds that take a fearful squeezing to make work. Where the warm sound in his chanters comes from I'd guess would be a well polished bore, he kept those bayonets he used as reamers good and sharp, and voicing the toneholes. Voicing is critical. If you're making a Swedish bagpipe go ahead and used a hot fireplace poker for boring, that's part of that sound, but with Irish pipes you need to do it right. I have a collection of old simple system flutes and even the unplayable out of tune no name piccolos have signs of the holes being voiced. People in the old days understood the value of this, to smooth out the sound. But modern pipemakers persist in just slapping on a template and drilling and calling it good, which is why so many of their chanters bray away. That, and all the African blackwood, which isn't as warm sounding as ebony.

Brad Angus told me how even the bellows inlet can be voiced. You get smoother whiffs of air.

Never liked the Rowsomes' drones, they missed the boat somewhere, I always preferred what the Taylors did. Another bit of interesting received wisdom was how most of the old flat makers' drones had a slight conical profile throughout the bore, but Egan's were a titch more cylindrical, the start of the bore was a bit larger and didn't grow quite so much, thus a slightly smoother sound. I wonder if Willie Rowsome started with an Egan set and enlarged the proportions, using a Taylor chanter as a role model, they say. Certainly Willie like Egan's regulator keys, and the old pipers seemed to think Egan was the cream of the crop.
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Re: What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

Post by PCL »

The early Wooff chanters are Egan-ish. Their volume depends as much on the reed as the bore. I had Wooff set number 30 (I think) being played in my kitchen last Saturday night (it was the wee hours of Sunday, actually) and it was very soft and sweet. Three others I can think of are typically pleasing. My own early Wooff chanter, modelled on the Wayland chanter, has never been loud. Craig Fischer's accurate copy of the Wayland chanter is louder, but it has a harder reed. I imagine that the Egan set made for Coughlan (the Dan O'Dowd set) may have been capable of playing on the loud side, perhaps designed like that, as Coughlan needed enough volume to fill a hall or to be heard within the din of a pub. Stick a louder reed in any narrow bore chanter and you'll make it louder. But why would you want to?
jpiper
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Tell us something.: Hi i would li,e to help fellow pipers with any questions about their chanters drones and regulators and reedmaking as i have been making pipes for a while without a website for other irish musicians and friends and alao word of mouth,but ill be putting a website up soon.

Re: What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

Post by jpiper »

Hi there.i totally agree with "M" " mr grumbly" and a few others about rowesome design and his intentions with regard to chanters mainly.
D concert pitched chanters were for use in auditorium's because flat sets just didnt have the power of volume that the flat pitched chanters had.its alot like opera......(.ok i kow this sounds strange but bear with me) opera singers dont need to sing like the way they do because we have microphones now...whereas back in the day they had to sing like that to make there voice heard in a theater.so......logically we dont really need concert chanters anymore because we have ways of amplifying the sound of a flat set so that anyone can here.....this is the conundrum.......most pipers use concert pitched chanters these days (mind you that there has been a good amount of pipers that order and play flat sets now)
Its tradition that mostly drive opera singers to continue to sing so loud....just like concert pitched chanters....perhaps its the power of the sound and/or the fact that evryone needs a D pitched chanter so we can all play together...thats logical as well.
Now when it comes to rushes in chaters by rowesome or dan o down this is beacause there customers were playin with other fiddle players ect and thier set was too sharp.even dan o dowd admitted this before he passed away....he had to alter his reeds or rush his chanters,so that other players like concertia a players could play along with them.

Anyway this is what i have researched and if anyone has strong objections to what i have said then i didnt mean to shatter anyones beliefes or reasearch or wisdom,
Jpiper
jpiper
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Tell us something.: Hi i would li,e to help fellow pipers with any questions about their chanters drones and regulators and reedmaking as i have been making pipes for a while without a website for other irish musicians and friends and alao word of mouth,but ill be putting a website up soon.

Re: What is a Rowsome Style Chanter

Post by jpiper »

Hi all ☺once again i have to agree to most of the input on this subject....ive reasearched this topic alot but i may have to call geoff who i knew when he was here in western auatralia...wihich is where he began making pipes.He was a machinist (metal) before he started but ive played many of his sets and there great no one better at flat pitched pipes or narrow bore d sets which he likes making better.this is what i learned on a narrow bored D practice set.
He doesnt like making D sets and preferes the flat pitched orders alot more.he also likes to work alone as well...thats why moved from dublin to france.his memories of australia seemed to make him just a bit uncomfortable but i found out later that he was begging people to make pipes for them because he needed the money to move to ireland.
Such a top person and very nice at saying NO much to our dissmay☺hes a small person like me...i mean physically...and in general ☺☺☺ im going to post reed diameters from someone close to rowesome...there suprisi g big and while i was making it i thought i was going to a real missmatc..but it was perfect well.....nothing is perfect but it worked so well with my rowesome measurements the only thing was that the reed staple had to go to the teough to work well...it was very warm but peojected well and it was easy to play as well its not super bright so im going to work on the beightness a bit more.this reed played well in a lot of chanters except a maker here in australia.
Thats me☺happy piping
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