Those cheap Pakistani pipes, secondary market

[ScottMaurer]

I wonder how many of those things actually get sold. you would think that with the number of listings out there, you would see these things pop up for second hand sale much more often (given they are crap). Its interesting to me that you don't see more of that.

What isn't worth 400-1200 dollars could well be worth grabbing at 100, reworking, pairing with a penny chanter and pushing back out to new pipers at ~1000. I wonder if people just hold on to them as expensive reminders to do research or what happens to them?

Any thoughts?

[dyersituations]

I'm assuming that pipe makers don't want to spend time on Pakistani sets when they could build their own. And most, if not all, pipe makers seem to have ongoing waiting lists. At one point in time Tim Britton did what you suggested, reworked Pakistani sets for a decent price. I've only seen one of his reworked sets being sold in the last year. It was a full set, and according to the piper who was selling it, played pretty well.

[ScottMaurer]

I can definitely understand not reworking them, its probably a big pain when they could be spending time making quality instruments. I just wonder why they don't show up second hand more.

[Cathy Wilde]

They're probably sold at garage sales and then find new homes on theme-pub walls!

[JR]

people need to stop buying them, its the only way they'll stop making them.

Reworked or not I imagine most would advise to stay well away.

I know of one incident whereby someone had asked a maker to rework their Pakistan set and the maker flat-out refused.

[ScottMaurer]

people need to stop buying them, its the only way they'll stop making them.

Reworked or not I imagine most would advise to stay well away.

I know of one incident whereby someone had asked a maker to rework their Pakistan set and the maker flat-out refused.

If I were a maker, I know I would refuse. not worth putting your name on something subpar. I absolutely agree with you about people needing to stop buying them.

The thrust of my inquiry is really how much volume do you suppose they do? how many sets do you think they sell every year? I've not seen any in person. ever. In a world where people will try to sell anything on e-bay. I have starting doubting they do a very high volume. I think they get just enough to keep making them. which is distressing because it tells me that it will never be simple to drive them out of the market place.

Sort of riffing off of that I was thinking of at what price are they worth it? I was thinking somewhere below what they cost in materials so that they become worth the hassle to a knowledgeable hobbyist.

[dyersituations]

If I were a maker, I know I would refuse. not worth putting your name on something subpar. I absolutely agree with you about people needing to stop buying them.

The thrust of my inquiry is really how much volume do you suppose they do? how many sets do you think they sell every year? I've not seen any in person. ever. In a world where people will try to sell anything on e-bay. I have starting doubting they do a very high volume. I think they get just enough to keep making them. which is distressing because it tells me that it will never be simple to drive them out of the market place.

Sort of riffing off of that I was thinking of at what price are they worth it? I was thinking somewhere below what they cost in materials so that they become worth the hassle to a knowledgeable hobbyist.

If you look at the feedback history for the eBay sellers, it looks like the busier ones sell at least 5 a year. That isn't a ton, but I feel sorry for whoever purchased them! I saw a set in person once (I don't remember why the person had them), and while I'm new on the pipes, it was obvious that they weren't playable.

I doubt they are worth it at any price, because it would be hard to tell if they were re-workable.

[PJ]

I've heard of at least one maker reworking Pakistani chanters and drones. I understand major surgery was required on the chanter with tone holes being filled and new holes drilled. Don't know the cost and don't know if the result was a playable set. I suspect that if the result was reasonable and the costs competitive we would have seen more reworked Pakistani sets, but we don't!

[amckay]

I got to observe a Pakistani half set a month ago from a new and unsuspecting buyer.
Drones weren't half bad. By no means good, but that turd could be polished with a new set of reeds.
The chanter - oh my goodness calling it a chanter is an insult to all the professionally made chanters out there. The basic dimensions were "about right" from a casual observation, but I suspect the maker was heavily drunk when drilling the tone holes. They were all over the place! One tone hole was drilled at a huge angle through the key block! Fingers had to be contorted to cover the tone holes adequately. I also hated the shape. It looked like a candle stick holder.
Off topic from the original post sorry, but I had to share that experience.

[ScottMaurer]

I got to observe a Pakistani half set a month ago from a new and unsuspecting buyer.
Drones weren't half bad. By no means good, but that turd could be polished with a new set of reeds.
The chanter - oh my goodness calling it a chanter is an insult to all the professionally made chanters out there. The basic dimensions were "about right" from a casual observation, but I suspect the maker was heavily drunk when drilling the tone holes. They were all over the place! One tone hole was drilled at a huge angle through the key block! Fingers had to be contorted to cover the tone holes adequately. I also hated the shape. It looked like a candle stick holder.
Off topic from the original post sorry, but I had to share that experience.

I'm not surprised. Easily the most difficult thing on a set would be the chanter. I mean drones are just tubes with noise makers at one end (obviously more goes into it than that but that is all you need to have basic function). I'm fairly certain that given the tools and time, I could turn out a set of halfway decent drones with some trial and error. A chanter though has to play in tune with itself (at the very least) through 2 octaves, seal up well and make a musical noise while its at it. I'm not sure any amount of trial and error would get me to turn out even the barest attempt at a chanter.

I can bring this back around to the topic actually. One of the reasons these folks exist is that people decry the high cost of a beginners set but it costs less then a comparable flute, less than many many lesser quality other instruments actually. I think the practice set needs an image boost, its a full instrument in its own right. This would lead to fewer dreams broken by crap Pakistani instruments.

[PJ]

I mean drones are just tubes with noise makers at one end (obviously more goes into it than that but that is all you need to have basic function).

Well, you probably need a little more than just noise. You want a steady, balanced, harmonious, back-ground sound over which you'll play your chanter (and possibly regulators).

On the 2 or 3 sets of (non-restored) Pakistani-made pipes I've seen, the main issues with the drones were:

1. Reeds - simply unplayable. No balance of the pressure required to play the different drone reeds (which were synthetic). In one case I recall that the tongue of the bass reed was quite rigid and no amount of pressure would shift it.
2. Binding on the drones - loose to the point that air leaked out, and the bass drone slide section would slip down due to gravity and air-pressure. The drones can't have leaks or their pitch will vary while you play.
3. Mainstock switch - very stiff, even with the added leverage of the giant stop-switch.
4. Leaky bags - One bag leaked through the vinyl. Another didn't have a valve on the air-intake.

Yes, you could probably get a set of these drones to play. But at the end of the day, you'll just have sunk time and money into something that will be very difficult to sell, should you decide to upgrade to a 3/4 or full set.

[anima]

I really don't see any need anymore for anyone to feel like one of these Krapistani pipes is an option. Yes, the waiting list for your maker of choice may be several years or longer, but there are so many makers now that it seems there is almost always a worthy set available second-hand at a decent price. This was not the case 10 years ago but more and more seems like it is now.

[hpinson]

It's been my observation that the people who buy these tend to stubbornly hold on to them. They generally have been advised not to go this route, buy anyway, get very frustrated, bring it to the piper who advised against, are finally convinced they have wasted their money, are embarrassed, and rather than passing on their mistake, away into the closet they go. Very occasionally, they go on to purchase a decent practice set... but usually they give up, telling themselves that the instrument was too hard to learn.

[centurion]

I have a reworked pakistani drones on my 1/2 set. I bought an ebay set fore 150 shipped, and took the drone off and resold it for 100. when I meant reworked though, I replace the 180 tubes, rebored and shortened the pieces to match harrington dimension and added a new reed. reworked the stock and valve. It ended up costing me about 100 bucks for fair set of drone and stock. but it was bit of work, but figured raw material was worth that and I didn't have to wait months. it doesn't look as nice as one from top maker, but for my own use, I am happy with it, but I won't recommend it for most. I have a full machineshop so it was easy for me.

The chanter that came with it would work ok with plastic reed. totally out of tune and pitch though . would get to high F. good enough for someone to try I guess and playable perse.