Flat high G fixes

[PCL]

The thing that strikes me about instrument makers in general is that they really dont know what they are doing.The whole industry is based on copying what has gone before and years of empirical experimentation that mostly produces dubious results . I'm not trying to put any one down here but although some makers make great instruments they really dont know on a theoretical level how they work.

RORY

Well, when you solve something like the Navier-Stokes equation, you can tell the rest of us how it works and what we are doing wrong. In the meantime, we just do our best with what we have. (Reed making in my case.)

[oliver]

That's a bit misleading, Oliver. Many Strads underwent major surgery in the 19th century when they were given longer, raked-back "modern" necks. That really did rack-up the string tension, as it was meant to do. And it happened to many violins, not just Strads. In more recent times pitch has gone up and down but string tension as a function of pitch can also be adjusted by the choice of string, especially the gauge.

Yes, you're right, but among the modifications in the 18th and 19th centuries, I was not talking about the neck here, but about the inside, because makers chose to reinforce the bracing instead of adapting the string gauge in most cases. I also talked about Strads only because these are the ones Rorybellows has mentioned, but of course it happened to all ancient violins.

[uillmann]

After spending thousands of hours fidgeting around with these things, some people do develop a knack for getting them working better. My first reaction to a high G problem would have nothing to do with the chanter top feed tube, gooseneck, or whatever. That is not to say that the infeed tube has no bearing, but I wouldn't start there. First thing I'd try is to make the staple a little fatter in the middle, maybe don't flatten the staple so far, and leave more of its length fully round at the bottom. You might even just try shoving a round mandrel up in the staple of the reed you have and try to enlarge it a tad. That is a little simpler than untying and retying further in, or on a different staple, but it sort of amounts to the same thing, except you don't change the seat depth or the void directly beneath the staple. Only thing about that is that you might change the angle of the tails and alter the pressure between the blades. As always, it is nearly impossible to make knowledgeable recommendations without inspecting and playing the thing. Get out your lupe and look inside the staple to see if it is overly or unevenly crushed. Too much enlargement too high up the staple will change the high A as Geoff noted. I would want to look at the undercutting of the G hole as well. There are lots of little things to consider, all of which will have some bearing. And as often seems to be the case, once you fix the g problem, you will want to address the twelve problems that crop up in its place.

[tompipes]

I would think the vast majority of instrument making dont really understand what controls the sound that comes from the finished instrument.

Rubbish

One example is the failure of violin makers who have been trying to reproduce the quality of Stradivarius violins.

More rubbish.

Another example closer to home is the stabbing in the dark method when it comes to problem solving , if the workings of the instrument were really understood ,that wouldn't be the case.

The 'stabbing in the dark' only happens because the reed and chanter isn't in the hands of those typing the suggested answers. You can only guess the problems and solutions from information given to you over a chat forum.

Flat high G? could be anything from a collapsing staple to a leaky bag to a snowstorm the far side of Cootehill.
Give the chanter and reed to a skilled reed maker and there'll be no more stabbing anywhere.

The question is, can science be applied to instrument making?

Yes. A pipe maker designs and makes wooden tubes to manipulate a standing wave so it sounds nice. Without science it wouldn't sound at all.

Benade may have written about the physics involved but have instruments got any better for it.

Hmmmm.... far too general a question. I know some budding pipe makers that changed their thinking on bore design after reading his work.

[Andy FitzGibbon]

One example is the failure of violin makers who have been trying to reproduce the quality of Stradivarius violins.

RORY

Several blind, controlled tests have shown that A. professional violinists cold not pick a Stradivarius out of a group of old and newly-made violins and B. almost all of those violinists chose a newly-made instrument, and not the Strad, as their favorite of the group.

Andy

[rorybbellows]

Just to answer the Strad issue. I said that a vast majority of makers dont know what they're doing but not all. Some exceptional makers have made violins of Strad quality or better. But there are hundreds of other makers copying Strad voilins who dont come close to that quality,this can apply to all musical instruments . Say in the case of pipes ,a maker gets his measurement whatever way he can but its almost certain these measurement are only a close approximation of the true bore ,so these measurements only take him so far , its the good pipemakers who can take the final step to make great pipes. But I still think having good intuitive and empirical knowledge of something is not the same as knowing how it works. The best pipemakers still have to copy someone else's work.Say for instance a pipemaker was asked to make a wide bore C chanter, How would he do it? Would he sit down with a blank piece of paper and a calculator and work out the bore and hole placements and know that his measurements would produce a wide bore chanter pitched in C.

RORY
PS
To cure the high G reduce the staple eye.

[uillmann]

RORY
PS
To cure the high G reduce the staple eye.

Pray tell why this might be so.

[rorybbellows]

RORY
PS
To cure the high G reduce the staple eye.

Pray tell why this might be so.

I dont know ,its something I read in Dave Hegarty's book.

RORY

[Brazenkane]

I tried the enlarging the eye move some time ago. It had absolutely zero affect on g2.

[geoff wooff]

RORY
PS
To cure the high G reduce the staple eye.

Pray tell why this might be so.

I dont know ,its something I read in Dave Hegarty's book.

RORY

Well, that sounds like the type of 'secondhand information' ( received wisdom) that is all too prevalent around here.

When you have tried and tested an idea and found it to be successfull then share it if you wish but do make sure that with something like a Reed adjustment where there will often be other consequences these should also be mentioned.

A little knowledge can be dangerous.

Geoff.

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

RORY
PS
To cure the high G reduce the staple eye.

Pray tell why this might be so.

I dont know ,its something I read in Dave Hegarty's book.

RORY

Actually in Dave's book he says to take the opposite approach - to cure flatness in both low and high G. Or at least he does in my copy, whichever edition that is. I've always liked the new edition of Dave's book, he has a suggested fix for about any kind of false note on a chanter, along with warning that many of these fixes may screw up your reed so proceed with caution, yada yada. Between that and Geoff's article on modifying bores/toneholes to adjust tuning we should be ready for anything. Whatever that article was printed in. I think it was in one of the Ceol na Eireann books.

The bit from Quinn about messing with the tube size was interesting, I'm sure he's tried a bit of everything here. Maybe a "Sticky" topic here about adjusting tuning note by note would be of help. Over the years hundreds of threads have popped up here about subjects, many full of useful advice, only to vanish back into the aether. Sticky topics (which always remain at the top of a message board's list of topics) would serve a useful public service here.

[Calum]

Maybe a "Sticky" topic here about adjusting tuning note by note would be of help.

I've often thought that reed troubleshooting would be quite effectively contained in a choose-your-own-adventure type format.

Code: Select all

You have a chanter: if the second octave is flat, turn to page 57.  Otherwise, turn to page 31.

Lots of ways to come to a gruesome end.

[geoff wooff]

Please note ( very clearly indeed !!!!) that;

the articles which Kevin R. refers to (above), were in no way meant for use by persons trying to cure the various tuning problems of their current chanter but rather were written to help those who may wish to build , or design a new chanter.

It is not always the Reed which is at fault but when you have put in the thousands of unpaid hours of research to find out what works and what does not, only to find that you have reached pension age without any hope of being financially able to actually retire... you may be a little disinclined to share too much of that hard won knowledge which, with luck, might keep you fed untill it is time for the 'boot hill' trip!

Caveat Emptor: beware of the " all mouth and no trousers' brigade !

Have a nice day,
Geoff.

[Lorenzo]

Maybe a "Sticky" topic here about adjusting tuning note by note would be of help. Over the years hundreds of threads have popped up here about subjects, many full of useful advice, only to vanish back into the aether. Sticky topics (which always remain at the top of a message board's list of topics) would serve a useful public service here.

Yep, the Pictures of Your Pipes thread has long lost any usefulness. Borrowing from Tommy Martin...maybe a parallel sticky too called Reed "Rubbish" where myths get started, perpetuated, and finally die.

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

Well, sometimes a bit of chanter adjustment is what it takes, unfortunately. Lots of presumably good chanters were "hosed out" in the past which is what we don't want, but presumably a person who is just making reeds not pipes isn't going to go the bother of building a reamer to enlarge their chanter's throat. Here is where you'd put in lots and lots and lots of caveats - starting with advocating that, by all means, use reversible approaches - wax, tape, rushes - before taking a rat tail file to toneholes.

On the subject of bore profiles, I picked up a copy of Hammy Hamilton's book on flutes this Christmas (he was having a holidays special, free shipping), and he says that flutes in the Rudall and Rose era show signs of being reamed all over the place to adjust tuning, later instruments not so much, like they figured out what worked and stuck with it.