Tutors and NPU

[Pipewort]

Roads to Tarsus for all concerned then.

Hey Ho.

[Cayden]

I think the variety, the traces of the influences of the people you learned from are a benefit in your playing, some use this and some use that and some go about certain things in a different way. Standardisation of teaching brings with it a danger of unification, everybody ending up sounding similar, using the same things in the same way. Even fifteen years ago people were talking about the 'Dublin' or 'NPU' style and not always in a favourable way indicating that while NPU has lifted the standard of piping in a tremendous way there was also an element of 'standard piping' to it.
I don't know what's best but I recommend my students to try and get as wide a scope of influences as they can and develop as individual a style as possible.

[Roger O'Keeffe]

It's always wonderfull how you get to learn tunes at such events that you, yourself, would never have chosen to learn (at that time).
Then they think it's weird you forget them.

At the last Dutch tionol:

Guest piper: "Will you be taking lessons tomorrow?"
Me: "No thanks, i will be sleeping in tomorrow! "

Ace piper though, that Brian McAodha.

Who art thou, Itisi?

I thought that Brian got the balance right, teaching a relatively easy-to-learn tune and then spending a good bit of time on the embellishments.

He was also responsive to the class's learning ability: not being sure how at ease people were with learning tunes by ear, he at first broke the tune into rather small fragments, but then responded positively to a suggestion from one of the members of the "advanced" class that it would be better to break it into longer but more meaningful phrases.

[glands]

I don't know what's best but I recommend my students to try and get as wide a scope of influences as they can and develop as individual a style as possible.

This is RIGHT on the mark.

I once had a lesson with fiddle player James Kelly. He stopped me during a jig, isolated a phrase, then went down to a particular emphasis on a note and asked me to play it over. He asked, "Where did you learn that?" "Kevin Rowsome," I replied. "I thought Kevin used that technique." "That's his playing. You need to develop your own way of playing it." He has had a similar conversation with another piper I know of re Clancy emulation.

Nothing wrong with emulation for learning purposes but we need to not become mannerists!

[djm]

Nothing wrong with emulation for learning purposes but we need to not become mannerists

Excellent point, but not, I think, applicable to someone who has only been playing a couple of years. Wouldn't one go in the opposite direction at first, to learn the techniques and stylings of as many of the old masters as possible before trying to develop one's own style? Can one really say they have developed their own style if they don't even know what was previously done? And can one really say they are an accomplished piper unless they can perform the techniques and styles of those who have gone before, whether or not they choose to incorporate those things in their own style later?

djm

[Joseph E. Smith]

Nothing wrong with emulation for learning purposes but we need to not become mannerists

Excellent point, but not, I think, applicable to someone who has only been playing a couple of years.

I am inclined to agree here. The thought being: before you can fly, you ought to learn how to crawl.

Emmulation is the crawling bit.

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

When I borrowed the Piper's Rock LP about 10 years ago after playing it a few times I could remember plenty of details about the various styles of the pipers. They were all immediately distinctive; simply to focus on tempo, you had both Maire ni Ghrada (steady as a rock, stately), and then Jimmy O'Brien-Moran (all over the place, mile-a-minute). About the drabbest piping on there I'd say was from Robbie Hannon - and once he got the Kenna (?) pipes, he'd immediately sounded the way we've all heard (I've a tape from 1979, right after he got the set I believe).
But I can't recall much of anything about most of the crew on New Dawn or Humours of Piping, and I've played those records plenty. Dunno how that works. Smyth and Kerr I can cue up in my mind but none of the rest, really. I think it was Todd Denman who wrote a review saying one of them (Conor McKeon?) sounded like he was playing back something he'd learned in a recent lesson.
Also, I borrowed the Piper's Rock from a Uilleann/Highland piper who thought they were just a bunch of no-talent Clancy clones, which I don't agree with but it's funny. He figured they went to the Pat Mitchell book like it was Scots Guards Vol. 1.

[itisi]

It's always wonderfull how you get to learn tunes at such events that you, yourself, would never have chosen to learn (at that time).
Then they think it's weird you forget them.

At the last Dutch tionol:

Guest piper: "Will you be taking lessons tomorrow?"
Me: "No thanks, i will be sleeping in tomorrow! "

Ace piper though, that Brian McAodha.

Who art thou, Itisi?

I thought that Brian got the balance right, teaching a relatively easy-to-learn tune and then spending a good bit of time on the embellishments.

He was also responsive to the class's learning ability: not being sure how at ease people were with learning tunes by ear, he at first broke the tune into rather small fragments, but then responded positively to a suggestion from one of the members of the "advanced" class that it would be better to break it into longer but more meaningful phrases.

I am the guy with the blue covered, never polished, MvD set that brought the rather big bag of weed..., you know..

I didn't say anything about Brian's method of teaching did I?
That would be kind of silly as i didn't attend the lessons....
It was just a general "what lessons are like generally at a tionol" reply.

Though i do know that someone went over to Ireland to get lessons off him and he said he'd rather just play together instead of giving lessons...

On another note:
Somewhere in Ireland there's a guy now called Joris Cornelissen.
He's the last true traveling piper.
He travels through countries on his bike and earns all his money with playing pipes/fiddle and juggling.
Listen to the guy if you get a chance as he has his own unique style.
He has hardly heard any other pipers at all. (at least before he went to Ireland lol)

[brianc]

Brian I have a list here from about the same time 1996 which was for a beginners class the tunes from one tutor for 6 days were...12 !! They included 4 reels 2 Hornpipes 2 Slip Jigs 4 Double Jigs
You must have had a progressive tutor.

I don't think I'd have enjoyed that very much. The instructor I had was Ciaran O'Maille, who also runs Scoil Acla. He's an outstanding tutor, in that he ensures that you have in your head AND on the chanter the concepts that he's attempting to get across. At the time I attended WCSS, I was well along into the Highland pipes, and it helped that Ciaran had also started out on those pipes, so he understood that I may have needed some time to 'unlearn' certain methods.

We had, if I recall, 6 pipers in the class. One of them asked to move up to a higher intermediate level, and we ended the week with 5 of us, so there was a good deal of individualized instruction. Perhaps it's a good time for me to dust off those cassette tapes for a re-listen. I do remember that the 1st tune we learned was "The First Slip", which was an easy tune to learn given it's relatively simple melody line.

Sessions are not the end all be all of ITM, they are simply a gathering of friends and musicians bent on having tunes and fun together. *sigh*...[/size]

Agreed. There's little to be learned while one is in a session, I think. Recording tunes and learning from that is fine, but to my ear, sessions don't lend themselves to helping with technique... quite the opposite, in my opinion.

[tompipes]

Sorry but I've been biting my lip here for a few days.

My first year at the Willie Clancy week i was taught 10 tunes and I learned another 10 from tunes that were put on tape from our teacher, one each day. ie 2 tunes in the class and 2 more for homework. I still play them all.
Honestly if I paid whatever amount of money and only got 2 tunes for a WHOLE WEEK of lessons, id be pissed off.

If you sign up for a week of lessons, expect to learn a load of tunes!. You're not expected to play them all that night, but at the same time you can't expect a teacher to revise the same tunes over and over again for a whole week...

6 tunes in one week is for 10 year olds. Especially if its the Willie Week.
If you utilise this week for what it is, you should pick up 60 tunes from it.

Tommy

[Pipewort]

Your are quite right Tompipes.

I should have added to my earlier contributions, that at the same time up to 12 further tunes were just played in the classes (and recorded) for us to work on, or at least learn from, and any question taken and discussed as needed. This latter lead into many interesting areas, particularly style etc.

I therefore, agree whole heartedly with your general observations on what is to be learnt, and how, from the tutors at WCSS.

The attendees also have SIX recitals to listen to, a THREE hour concert devoted to uillean piping, and lectures on aspects of the u/p tradition available too. There are innumerable sessions. The tutors can be found, having a blast themselves at these, where there are further opportunities to develop ones 'ear' for style, technique, tunes.

[Uilliam]

6 tunes in one week is for 10 year olds. .

Tommy

That may be true for some 10year olds but I would suggest that ye remember that the majority of pupils attending WCSS are considerably older than 10yrs
What may have been fine for yersel doesnae automatically make it so for others.Judging frae the contributions and the comments made supposedly by the NPU Tutors themselves(which prompted this discussion in the 1st place) the field seems to be evenly placed with odds on technique or tunes.
Uilliam

[misterpatrick]

Interesting discussion. I'll just add a recent experience of mine. I recently took a master class with the accordionist Paddy O'Brien. An hour and a half once a week for three weeks. There were six of us of varying levels and instruments. His goal for the class was to introduce us to older tunes. A recording device was required as this wasn't a class on how to play these tunes, but rather how these tunes can be played. He would talk about a tune, its origins and variations, play it through a regular speed and then play it through slowly, isolatng and repeating bits and pieces while pointing out what was happening.

I learned a lot but didn't actual learn any tunes. I have several tapes full of great tunes that I can use as a reference.

Personally, I can't learn a turn very well by going over it a few times in a class. I need to get the tune on my head before it stays there. What I've found most valuable at tionols is not the tunes, rather techniques that have been passed on when going over the tunes.

I haven't been to Wille Week but hope to go soon.

[Uilliam]

As an adjunct to the discourse...the actual class time if I remember rightly at WCSS was 10am to 1pm with a 1/2 hr teabreak.So that was 2 and a 1/2 hours tuition time per day.(In reality it was probably nearer 2 hours per day)
Now that may seem a long time to the tutor and probably was but it is not nearly long enough for the student.
The classes could have as many as 10 students per class.That did not leave much room for individual tuition.
Few of the tutors actually gave out dots or ABC for the tunes.This meant that the new tune/s was/were coming fresh to the student.
The amount of time taken to get around to each individual was a bit like countdown with your turn creeping up, this in itself was enough to bring the sweats on with some folks and put them on the spot with their peers.
To be fair I did enjoy the school and not because of the after hours activity..I did learn,its just that at some classes I learnt more than at others.
I have no idea whatsoever what the classes are like these days but I do not see the logic in cramming tunes,there was enough pressure going on without creating unnecessary additional work.
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[Harry]

Maybe we could focus on making ourselves great pipers?

Nobody has ever done that considerable work for someone else, and it isn't going to happen soon to everybody's favoured spec. Ennis had it right to stay aloof from teaching; he loved people recording him for their own use, but he didn't give much away on technique. This was the way that it was in 'old' societies (its still like this in some, more enlightened places): there was the master and the student, the focus was on the student to learn... but now we have different ideas because we are all so clever (if not clever enough to make ourselves good, aware musicians) and we have the 'intelligence' of the internet

More so now than ever, the answer is HARD WORK. If you have a good teacher you will have to WORK HARD to become a good musician. If you have no teacher but 1023 CDs to listen to you will have to WORK HARD both in learning to hear and in learning to play. If you have a robo-interactive-CDROM-virtual-internet pipes tutorial you will have to WORK HARD to translate the cold, hard info thereon into good musicianship.

BTW, HARD WORK is relative. I used to practice for 5+ hours a day and I never considered it HARD WORK.

Because we value our narrow little opinions so much we think that if we stamp our feet enough some nice, big thing will decend from the sky, or from some scary, dangerous, shady, axis-of-evil organisation, and give us *exactly* what we want.

If you want things to happen, make it happen. If you want something to happen in association with NPU then engage with NPU and take on some of the considerable work involved with your fellow members and pipers. Or do this with another piping organisation.

The levels of musicianship in the areas that make distinct, expressive musicians are in decline. It is not one person, or one piper's, or one organisation's fault. Lets have a little think about what the reasons for this might be, shall we?

Regards,

Harry.