usage of Cnat key in first octave

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:35 pm

I'm not sure we're talking about the same triplets, then. In Keenan's version on his first solo LP, he plays these two triplets one after the other in the first part very stacatto: (3.d.c.B (3.c.B.A . It is also written this way in the Armagh Pipers book. I know that a lot of people will opt out of the Cnat in these triplets and just play it as a one-finger C#, but listening to the LP you can clearly hear Keenan plays the Cnat, and it sounds much better this way. Its the second c that really needs to be a Cnat the most.

djm

David Lim · Post by **David Lim** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:51 pm

djm, I've just had listen to Keenan's Colonel Fraser slowed down and would now like to withdraw what I said.

It sound like the first triplet (dcB) is stacatto and then the cnatBA triplet is legato.

David

goldy · Post by **goldy** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:05 pm

There is a recording on the 'Gentleman pipers' album of Willie playing "The dear Irish boy" (a slow air) where he played Cnat in the first octave using the key every time (you can hear it snaping back onto the wood from sliping his thumb off it).

I find you can get that nice slur that is sometimes desired in slow airs using the key and since I get a slightly sharp Cnat using cross fingering, while attaining a slightly flat Cnat using the key, it is good to vary which one I use in a tune for a bit of varying character.

Goldy.

ausdag · Post by **ausdag** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:54 pm

It's funny - In the 12-13 years I've been playing pipes, I've had much more use of the Fnat key. Could be because I only have an Fnat key. But I've never had reason to have a C key put on my chanter. One day I guess I'l get around it. And when I do, if I ever face the dilemma of whether to use the key or cross finger, I'll just do what I feel like doing at the time.

Cheers,

DavidG

Patrick D'Arcy · Post by **Patrick D'Arcy** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:59 pm

ausdag wrote:It's funny - In the 12-13 years I've been playing pipes, I've had much more use of the Fnat key. Could be because I only have an Fnat key.

How's that? That's the first chanter I've ever heard of with only an Fnat key. Is the Cnat broken? How do you play the key on your chanter? Maybe it's really a Cnat which would explain why it plays so sharp for an Fnat

PD.

wolvy · Post by **wolvy** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:34 pm

I know it has been said before, but gosh Patrick, that avatar of yours is downright creepy. Gives me the heeby-geebies.

ausdag · Post by **ausdag** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:56 pm

Patrick D'Arcy wrote:
ausdag wrote:It's funny - In the 12-13 years I've been playing pipes, I've had much more use of the Fnat key. Could be because I only have an Fnat key.
How's that? That's the first chanter I've ever heard of with only an Fnat key. Is the Cnat broken?

When I bought it, it had no keys, only blocks.

I was more interested in being able to play tunes like Tabhair Dom Do Lamh but with a more in tune Fnat then one can generally get with lifting the chanter off the leg alone, so I bought an Fnat key.

Patrick D'Arcy wrote: How do you play the key on your chanter? Maybe it's really a Cnat which would explain why it plays so sharp for an Fnat

PD.

There is no C key. If you're asking how I play the Fnat key - with the little finger of my top hand. And it's very in-tune.

Cheers,

DavidG

Patrick D'Arcy · Post by **Patrick D'Arcy** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:04 pm

Wow, fair play Dave.

Hey Wolvy... or should I say Mongo... you can't talk! Leave poor Judge alone and remember....

1: look for a safe place.
2: don't hurry, stop and wait.
3: look all around and listen
before you cross the road remember
4: let all the traffic past you
5: then walking straight across you
6: KEEP WATCHING!
That's the safe cross code,
That's the safe cross code,
Know the safe cross code,
KNOW THE CODE!

Bye bye children,

Judge.

Kevin L. Rietmann · Post by **Kevin L. Rietmann** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:59 pm

I played Bill Och's Taylor pipes years ago, I think it had a good cross-fingered C. John Walsh's does, as well as a Taylor double chanter and various copy-cats I've played - Brown and Hennelly mostly. I've heard about these weird 'uns though.
In some airs I've sworn Ennis and Clancy were using the key, on purpose - just for the tone. Lament for the Fox, maybe. Super clean transition from C to B.
Paddy used the key in the first part. I should mention that he played the tune faster than *hit. Why are you guys looking for approval from your superiors? Just play whatever works, Paddy's not going to make you sit in the corner at the next workshop.
How can you tell Doran's using the key in R. Paddy, Tom? Definitely sounds off the knee and louder than the key would give, and he's playing those triplets on the regulators. Seems like you could cut yourself or get carpal tunnel syndrome bashing away like that.

wolvy · Post by **wolvy** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:47 am

Kevin ---- I was not looking for approval from my superiors. I am looking for advice from more experienced pipers. Isn't that how we all learn?

...and yes, Mongo likes candy!

tompipes · Post by **tompipes** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:12 pm

How can you tell Doran's using the key in R. Paddy, Tom?

Usualy you can tell coz the note sounds a tad flatter and a bit quitre too.
On listening again theres not that much use of it in Rakish Paddy. But listen to Johnny play the Coolin (lots of G# key work too)and Job of Journeywork. There's key work all over those. In Fermoy Lasses too.
I believe Touhey used the C nat key a lot when he played Rakish Paddy too.
Tommy

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:52 pm

I don't think Touhey played a single Cnatural in Rakish Paddy, I was amazed how he managed t oavoid them all

(I seem to have deleted the MP3 off the computer so I am saying this based on my memory of the fragment that is available of Touhey's version)

Both Felix and Johnny Doran had some interesting uses for the C nat key (Willie Clancy uses it on occasion too). I have Martin Rochford on tape demonstrating a few approaches he got off the Dorans using the key for tunes like the Cliffs of Moher. Interesting Stuff, also helps greatly recognising the sound when the key is used.

Royce · Post by **Royce** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:50 am

Antaine wrote:I use the key in the first octave with liberal abandon. about the only tune i don't use it for is A Nation Once Again, and possibly one arrangement of the Minstrel Boy.

the fingerings i had worked out (some better than others) minimizing inaccurate half holeing for my first, unkeyed chanter is

Just out of curiosity, and relative to another thread you and I are engaged in, what other tunes are in your repertoire?

Royce

tommykleen · Post by **tommykleen** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:14 pm

Another use for the Cnat key is to generate a Bflat (A sharp). This doesn't work on all chanters/reeds but it worked for me on a Rogge chanter with a certain reed. You typically get this note by covering all the holes and hitting the cnat key.

Your mileage may vary.

t

Antaine · Post by **Antaine** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:21 pm

Royce wrote: Just out of curiosity, and relative to another thread you and I are engaged in, what other tunes are in your repertoire?

Royce

the fingerings i worked out were done thru trial and error on my first, keyless chanter and other people's tables long ago. i've long since gotten all my keys, so never went back to it and reworked it. if you know of better or more common fingerings for those notes on keyless chanters by all means, share away. i'm not married to any of them. I think the basic diatonic notes were all right from the spillane book, but i started learning with a number of fingering charts, not all of which agreed with each other.

i have inherited from my other instruments the crutch of needing sheetmusic in front of me, even if i only glance at it occasionally. a few of these are truly memorized, but for most i carry a binder and stand in my case. so if by repertoire you mean "can you play it" the list is below, if you mean "can you play it from memory" the list would be much shorter.

note that all the tunes i've got, except for a few practice ones, are slow airs, or otherwise simple tunes.

understanding that most of you probably have several hundred tunes, but this is my complete list. I can through making sets of them and repetition easily fill 45 minutes without touching but half (which is usually what I'm asked to play for pre-wedding ceremony or graveside piping).

boolavogue (serious attempt, not what i posted - else i'd've been buried in my case long ago)
fáinne gael an lae
only our rivers run free
she moved throught the fair
the foggy dew
derry air
the girl i left behind me
god save ireland
once in royal david's city
caoineadh cú chulainn
boolavogue
buachaill on eirne
bog braon
éamonn an chnoic
the parting glass
the parting glass (air)
salley gardens
a nation once again
nearer my god to thee
amazing grace
skye boat song
sean south
mo ghíle mear
an cailín álainn
úir-chill a' chreagáin
grace
the town i loved so well
sí beg sí mór
blind mary
the last rose of summer
a few church hymns
a few christmas carols

songs i play, but only when practicing
scotland the brave
donnybrook fair
the rights of man
saddle the pony
theme from jesu, joy of man's desiring