Is reviewing pipes a pointless exercise ?

[MarcusR]

Hi!

The main problems with reviews that we currentlty have is who is giving them.

To be quite honest, you can read a review from a very inexperienced player who really isn't able to properly asess the instrument. In fact I have seen these many times, having heard the players who are giving these reviews at tionols, etc.

As I’m still a beginner I actually enjoy reading reviews by less experienced pipers. It’s easy to relate to their descriptions of the pros and cons as we are on the same level. Of course I will doubt their conclusions at times in the same way I won’t run of to the theatre to catch a show just because a well known critic gave it 5 stars. And to get information about the transition from a practise set to a half set of a certain maker from a non professional player holds quite a bit of important information. How this person experienced the new pipes, the addition of drones, contact with the makers etc as a beginner is as interesting to me as the opinion of a professional player on a beginner set. The novice reviewer will likely have a complete different opinion about his old sets in ten years time when he/she has become an expert piper and that’s just part of the progress. Naturally more experienced pipers are more suitable to give advice, reviews and recommendations. But I feel that there are quite a few recommendations by experienced pipers that actually overshoot the target. Not all pipers have the ambition to be Paddy Keenan or even semi professional. I play pipes because I always loved them. If I remain a kitchen piper for the rest of my life it’s fine with me. I will still enjoy every minute of playing. But I hope to one day become good enough to play in church at my daughters weddings, this is my piping ambition.

Road cycling is another big hobby of mine but even if I had the money I doubt that I would spend 9000$ on a new bike just because Lance said it was the best. Being an amateur I could probably not tell or at least not benefit from the difference between a good 3000$ bike or a Discovery team bike. I believe the same goes for my piping.

One common topic on this forum is advice from experienced players to beginners what to buy. It always surprises me when someone recommends a beginner to start of with a full set, a fully keyed chanter or expensive sets from the top makers. It is easy for an experienced player, who has owned and played a large number of sets, to know what set and maker he/she should have started out on as they have the knowledge and experience. But what is right for them might not be right for me. I can’t see the point in spending a lot of time and money trying to find a first set of pipes that will last me a life time, instead of spending quality time with a good practise set and try to find out what I want out of my next set as I progress. This will also give me an opportunity to try sets (or chanters) by different makers before I make my final choice of a full set. In the end I might even decide to go for a narrow bore or a flat set to play more non ITM stuff. I’m therefor glad that I have a few years ahead of me to make up my mind.


So even if you only are a struggling beginner or non experienced piper don’t hesitate to give your opinion about the pipes you play or the ones you have tried. At least I would be interested to hear about your experience.

Cheers!

/MarcusR

[upiper71]

There's also the matter of the vested interest the piper has in the reputation of his pipemaker. If a piper says "I paid $5,000 for a set of Mr. X's pipes and they're rubbish" he can kiss his $5,000 good bye as Mr. X's rep will be affected and the piper will never be able to sell his X pipes and buy a different set.

That said, there have been a few instances over the past 6 months when sets have come up for sale on eBay and discussions on this forum have helped guide the buyers. As long as people keep a cool head, there's no harm in healthy discussion.

True enough! Reviews are completely subject to replies, both neg. and pos. but as long as they post with calm,cool, collectiveness about them ; everyone should be able to get along well.

But that's why we have rules/guidelines in the forum anyways...right? Ex: I hate XCFBGD's pipes they suck = wrong....I dislike the tone,finish,workmanship, etc,etc,etc = right.

upiper71

[billh]

Hi!

One common topic on this forum is advice from experienced players to beginners what to buy. It always surprises me when someone recommends a beginner to start of with a full set, a fully keyed chanter or expensive sets from the top makers.

/MarcusR

<opinion>

It's different from racing bikes, for instance, in that there's no basic level of playability that one can be assured of even in the low price bracket. While I wouldn't advocate a beginner buying a full set, I *would* advocate buying the best set that money and time will allow. I think it's even wise for a beginner to go for the 'better chanter' even if that may delay his or her entry into piping somewhat. Getting a mediocre (or poorly set-up) set at the beginning will set you back in the long run. And the difference in playability between bad and good can be vast.

Some of you know that I've recommended Penny Chanters before. Maybe this is the exception that proves the rule - the point being that the cost is low *and*, more importantly, the playability of the chanter is a known quantity. So the price/performance ratio is very favorable. The same would go for other 'budget' chanters, provided I was confident that the instrument's performance was good enough not to hold a learner back. I have personally had limited experience with chanters meeting that criterion, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

In that respect, I think that an "expensive chanter from a top maker", to paraphrase MarcusR, may be the best choice for a beginner, if the necessary funds can be scraped together. Such instruments will hold their value if treated properly.

</opinion>

cheers

Bill

[Steampacket]

I agree with Bill in this matter. Even when starting out to play the uilleann pipes it certainly makes life less frustrating and heartbreaking to have an chanter that is in tune with itself, and that has a decent reed in place.

Too often one sees beginning pipers with chanter holes half covered in tape and stuff shoved up the bore in an attempt to get the stick in tune with itself or with whatever reed is "nearly" working. Sometimes to little or no avail, their chanters are still out of tune.

Better to have a decent tin whistle and learn to play some tunes on that whilst waiting/saving for a good chanter. It's not that easy when starting out to know who makes the good stuff, or what's worth buying secondhand, I realise this, but ask around, and use the net archives. Most experienced pipers are willing to give advice and what pitfalls to avoid

[WannabePiper]

Too often one sees beginning pipers with chanter holes half covered in tape and stuff shoved up the bore in an attempt to get the stick in tune with itself or with whatever reed is "nearly" working. Sometimes to little or no avail, their chanters are still out of tune.

Of course, you hear this of "pro" stuff too. Such is the nature of the beast.

[MarcusR]

<opinion>
While I wouldn't advocate a beginner buying a full set, I *would* advocate buying the best set that money and time will allow. I think it's even wise for a beginner to go for the 'better chanter' even if that may delay his or her entry into piping somewhat. Getting a mediocre (or poorly set-up) set at the beginning will set you back in the long run. And the difference in playability between bad and good can be vast.
</opinion>

cheers

Bill

Hi Bill, thanks for your reply.

Maybe me point got lost in the entire rumble but in the case between a poor, or mediocre to a good expensive chanter I think the choice is quite obvious.

I dont know anything about the Pennychanter as I never seen it or heard it live. But I know there are respected makers that make very good chanters in the price range of 500-1500 $ (maybe even less or more depending on keys and other options). I just can’t see why I would become a better player if I start out on a very good 1500$ chanter instead of a very good 500$ chanter? If it is good, its good, no matter the price, right?

As for economics, if you buy a very good set from a top maker it will likely hold its value. But if you buy a very good set from a new maker it might even double it's value in a few years. And if you want to try different chanters as you progress there will perhaps be more people interested in buying a good 500$ chanter than a good one for 1500$.

So as a beginner I am interested to hear about others experiences both novice and expert. And of course I would be very interested to hear about the pitfalls and the makers to avoid from experienced players. However this is the kind of review that's not really accepted here at C&F, and I guess it is what this thread originally was about. I think others have pointed out some good ways this could be done. But a few problems will always remain; reviews are always subjective and not static. Both the reviewers opinions and the makers product can change over time but a written judgment on the internet can remain way too long.

/MarcusR

[billh]

Hi Bill, thanks for your reply.

Maybe me point got lost in the entire rumble but in the case between a poor, or mediocre to a good expensive chanter I think the choice is quite obvious.

Sure.

... I know there are respected makers that make very good chanters in the price range of 500-1500 $ (maybe even less or more depending on keys and other options). I just can’t see why I would become a better player if I start out on a very good 1500$ chanter instead of a very good 500$ chanter? If it is good, its good, no matter the price, right?

Dunno if I agree, at the low end of that range. I still think there's a huge difference between what you can get for 500 and what you can get for 1500. Your point about cost not equalling value is of course correct, for better or worse.

My opinion is still that you have to spend around 1000 for a good chanter unless you get a second hand bargain. As I said, I have limited firsthand experience with chanters that are currently available for less than that.

As for economics, if you buy a very good set from a top maker it will likely hold its value. But if you buy a very good set from a new maker it might even double it's value in a few years. And if you want to try different chanters as you progress there will perhaps be more people interested in buying a good 500$ chanter than a good one for 1500$.

Well, you might gamble that your new $500 pipemaker will be tomorrow's $1500 pipemaker, but s/he will have probably improved his or her craft in the meantime (as you yourself pointed out), so I don't really buy this argument.

If one maker is getting three times as much as another for a chanter, there's a reason. Sometimes the reasons include fashion, scarcity, or hype, but they may include more practical and functional considerations as well.

So you've got to see them and hear them (live, preferably), and talk privately to knowledgeable players, to have the best chance of making a decision that's right for you.

Bill

[Droner]

Slurry

[MarcusR]

Hi!

My opinion is still that you have to spend around 1000 for a good chanter unless you get a second hand bargain.
Bill

I’m' sure you are right Bill and even if I disagreed I’m not experienced enough to assess the sound quality of different chanters.

Question is if you think I need to spend at least 1000$ for a chanter to have an instrument good enough not to limit my progress into piping? As an experienced piper I guess your criteria for sound characteristics and playability is quite different from mine, so are our piping ambitions.

Thing is that I have had a Robbie Hughes practise set for a few years now and just decided to move on to a half set. But all the makers I considered have chanter prices well below 1000$.
Still these are makers whose pipes I have heard live and liked, or have got favorable reviews by experienced pipers I respect. I just can’t see the need for me to move up to the top end. That can off course be due to inexperience or the fact that I never tried any of the high end expensive sets.

I would hate to ride a top model team bike and end up with a mediocre result in a bike race.
Same goes for my piping. I would feel very uncomfortable having an expensive top model full set at a tionol or a session and not being able to play it good enough.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Slurry

Brilliant contribution, it sure cleared up things
I take it you mean that I should spend more time practicing instead of hanging around this forum.
You might be right.

/MarcusR

[billh]

Hi!

My opinion is still that you have to spend around 1000 for a good chanter unless you get a second hand bargain.
Bill

...
Question is if you think I need to spend at least 1000$ for a chanter to have an instrument good enough not to limit my progress into piping?
...
I would feel very uncomfortable having an expensive top model full set at a tionol or a session and not being able to play it good enough.

...

/MarcusR

Hi Marcus:

I've been thinking about this since I posted it. Besides the fact that I feel I should have inserted the word "traditional" before the word chanter, I am not sure how confident I am of my initial assertion. Maybe the magic figure should be $800 instead of $1000, but I still think that at best you get what you pay for (and at worst you pay for what you do not get).

You're right that by analogy it would seem a waste for anyone but a virtuoso violinist to play a Stradivarius. But we aren't really talking Strad/Coyne here. My impression of most chanters that I've played (and/or attempted to reed) below, say, what would now cost $900 or so new, has been disappointing. As I've said before, there are a number of options that I haven't had an opportunity to try (for instance Pat Sky's offerings), so I really can't make a blanket declaration,

Are top-of-the-line racing bikes much easier to ride than midrange models? I doubt it, though they may be that little bit lighter and faster. But there's a big range of playability out there in chanters, I think it's a different ball game (if you'll pardon the metaphoric potpourri).

You can do without the extra keys, fancy mounts, and wooden tops (though all are nice). What matters is the bore and reed, if we're talking about something "holding you back". I've seen a lot of players with pipes that were IMO doing just that. If you can try stuff out before you decide, that's the best way to go, especially since this isn't your first set.

Bill