Nickel tubing barrel joint

[elbowmusic]

Hello,

Does anyone know of a source of nickel tubing for the barrel joint? I'm looking to make a replacement barrel joint for a wooden flute. I'm not sure how standard the sizes are, but I'm guessing there can't be too many sizes of nickel tubing available.

[paddler]

The only place I know of is Metalsmith Ltd in the UK. They have german made nickel-silver precision tubing in metric sizes. For a D flute you probably want 19mm inside diameter/20 mm outside diameter for the head liner and 20 mm inside diameter/21mm outside diameter for the barrel. These will fit together precisely for making a good tuning slide. They sell in small quantities and will ship to the US. Here is the link:

http://www.metalsmith.co.uk/

Jon

[Gabriel]

Hi,

haven't tried metalsmith.co.uk, but their stuff looks decent. I get my nickel silver tubing from Geyer GmbH (a german company), they do just about every size you ask them for, however their minimum quantity is 5 meters if I remember correctly.

Depending on how old your flute is and where it was made, the metalsmith.co.uk sizes may fit, or not. You may need imperial measurements. Problem is that a male tuning slide (the inner tube) can always be sanded down, however enlarging the female slide (the outer tube) is very difficult.

The numbers paddler suggested are fine. I use 22x1.0 nickel tubing for my outer slides, and 20x0.5 brass tubing for the inner slides. many modern makers use the same sizes/internal diameters. The reason why I use a 22x1.0 outer slide instead of a 21x0.5 one is purely for aesthetics.

Cheers,
Gabriel

[Holmes]

Metalsmith are decent, a little expensive but the wall thickness of the tube is .5mm which is too much for head/barrel tubing. I have turned the wall thickness down before in small quantities for repairs. It is tricky but I've had good results.

H

https://soundcloud.com/holmesflute/vimy ... d-p-archer Bb Ormiston eight key.
https://soundcloud.com/holmesflute/paul ... r-flute-up D H&Mc Blackwood eight key

[Geoffrey Ellis]

I've never considered that .5mm was too thick. I've measured the tubing on a Patrick Olwell D flute, as well as on a Copley in the same key, and I know Paddler has measured a few as well. The Olwell and Copley both use slides with .5mm thick tubing, and Paddler says his Murray has walls that are .49.

Have you noticed a substantial difference between a slide made with .5mm vs. .4mm, for example? I can't imagine working with tubing that was under .3mm walls--that seems awfully thin. Is a couple of tenths of a millimeter going to be audible?

[paddler]

I measured the wall thickness of the head liner for a bunch of antiques I have access to. The English ones, (Wylde, Imlay, Fentum, Bilton, Prowse) are all over .4 mm. The American ones (Riley, Hall, Firth, Pond and various combinations of the above) all seem to be slightly under .4 mm. I have wondered how much wall thickness is too much in practice. It would seem to be a tradeoff between minimizing the size of the cavity introduced in the bore vs having a tube that is robust enough to stand up to normal use.

Oh, and I also measured the wall thickness of some of the nickel tubing I got from Metalsmith. It measured at .43 mm, even though it was advertised at .5mm. I don't know how much variation there might be in a batch, but the tubing does telescope together nicely, so there must be some freedom built in to the measurements.

I'd be curious to hear what other makers think about this.

[Gabriel]

I've been using material with .5mm wall thickness all the time, as most of the makers I know have. Theoretically, a wall thickness of 0 would be best, but you obviously can't get that. I have seen a plan that used .4mm thickness, but the required tubing (inside and outside) isn't available from stock anywhere, so having them made is extremely expensive as they're not stock size, thus having the supplier adjust their entire machinery for your order of 5 meters of tubing...turning and sanding the tubes down by .1mm is way too much work and not very precise, so I never opted to do that. Plus, you need a 19.80mm drill to make the tube receiving fraction in the headjoint, another item no machining supplier stocks.

I made 71 flutes and and a dozen or so of headjoints for other maker's flutes in the last five years, and never had any problems with the .5mm thickness, FWIW.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

I contacted Geyer GumbH to get a quote and they mentioned that they don't export to the U.S., in case any other American makers are thinking of getting tubing there. They did say that they have a dealer in the U.K. : http://www.focusmetals.co.uk/. I haven't contacted Focus Metals yet to get a quote, but I'm curious to know how their prices compare to Metalsmith.

[Holmes]

Without getting my micrometer out I know that the head/barrel tubing of our flutes is less than .5mm wall thickness (which I consider too thick). I'd guess our bespoke tube it is closer to .35mm. Thin wall tubing is notoriously difficult to accurately measure as it can flare or be uneven at the edge giving a false impression. The fact that you are measuring a cross section of a circle can influence the measurement too.

The historic flutes I have measured have been less that .5mm wall thickness.

I don't think it makes a difference other that if you are trying to emulate an old flute that it is best to be as close to that as possible, then there is the weight which offers the possibility of unbalancing the flute.

We don't have to agree but I'll carry on with what I'm doing thanks.

H

https://soundcloud.com/holmesflute/vimy ... d-p-archer Bb Ormiston eight key.
https://soundcloud.com/holmesflute/lair ... ood-mooney D H&Mc Rudall ABW eight key

[Geoffrey Ellis]

...then there is the weight which offers the possibility of unbalancing the flute.

Interesting. Given the minimal weight of the metal tubing compared to the wood in the body of a flute, I'm a bit surprised by the idea that reducing the weight of just the tube by 30% is going to unbalance the entire flute. We are talking about a few grams, I think.

However, I would agree that if one is doing reproductions or repairs to antique flutes that sport thinner walled tubes then it makes sense to seek out the nearest thing to the original.

[Tjones]

I like to point out that you are all assuming that your gauges are calibrated exactly the same. It has been my experience that since they are not, different gauges, even of the same make will give you different results. I had a diamond supplier who cut diamonds for a Japanese company that had this very problem. They ended up traveling to Japan just to calibrate both company’s gauges to the same standard, just so they would match. They matched six gauges, five they used in their shop, and one was put in their safe for a constant. When you are dealing with very small measurements, some times the tools can get out of whack.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

I like to point out that you are all assuming that your gauges are calibrated exactly the same. It has been my experience that since they are not, different gauges, even of the same make will give you different results. I had a diamond supplier who cut diamonds for a Japanese company that had this very problem. They ended up traveling to Japan just to calibrate both company’s gauges to the same standard, just so they would match. They matched six gauges, five they used in their shop, and one was put in their safe for a constant. When you are dealing with very small measurements, some times the tools can get out of whack.

I buy digital dial calipers from Harbor Freight. Nothing fancy, but surprisingly accurate and consistent once you learn how to use them. It's true that with these types of measuring devices, one can get minor variations depending upon how hard one "squeezes" them on the object being measured. But I have sets of high precision steel gauge plugs and I've tested my various calipers on them (I have about three different sets of calipers purchased at different times) and they are all highly consistent, provided that one remembers to zero the calipers before measuring and is not aggressive about clamping the jaws down.

I think there is enough play in the calipers to account for very small differences, depending upon how hard one squeezes. Something in the range of 3 thousands of an inch, which would certainly account for the difference between .5mm and .4mm, for example.

[elbowmusic]

Thank you for the suggestions on where to buy tubing by the way. If I remember correctly, the flute that is being repaired is a Murray. So, yes, a modern maker.

Nate