Patented Roller Springs stamped on F, H and P Flute.

[vanwhel]

What are Patented Roller Springs on Firth, Pond and Hall Flute? It's stamped on the Head Joint and Heart on the flute. Just Curious.
Thanks,
Vance

[jemtheflute]

No idea, but a quick look at the springs will likely reveal all. Is the flute in your possession?

[vanwhel]

Yes I have the flute and will pull a pin or two and look at the springs. I will see if I can get a good shot of the Markings and Springs. I was just curious if anyone knew about or had seen this before.

[vanwhel]

Well I pulled the Eb key of my flute and sure enough on the bottom of the spring is a small roller. I tried to post a couple of pics but still have yet to figure that out.
Sorry this took so long,

Vance

[jemtheflute]

Posting photos - edit your photo first in your onboard photo-editor (if necessary) - crop it, reduce it to a maximum 750 pixel width (height unimportant - that width avoids bumping the Forum page display width) and upload it to a web host of your choice (Photobucket, Flikr etc.). Once uploaded, get the link code (usually provided ready-to-post in IMG format) and paste that in a posting here (you may need to delte redundant elements). Use the Preview tab below the entry pane to check it works OK before submitting post.

[vanwhel]

Well I hope you can see this I made an album on my Facebook Page and here is the link https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... d8b9a4ab0b
The photo with the 4 flutes are all American Flutes. E Riley, Firth and Hall, Firth Hall & Pond and William Hall & Son. All are fully restored and playing. Also are the photos of the Eb key off the Firth Hall & Pond. You can see the tiny roller on the bottom of the spring. There are a couple of shots of the stamping off the same flute. It's a great player and was the one Fintan Vallely had on his web site then on eBay. The photos he took then I took don't do the instrument justice. But of course love is blind !

[Jon C.]

Well I hope you can see this I made an album on my Facebook Page and here is the link https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... d8b9a4ab0b
The photo with the 4 flutes are all American Flutes. E Riley, Firth and Hall, Firth Hall & Pond and William Hall & Son. All are fully restored and playing. Also are the photos of the Eb key off the Firth Hall & Pond. You can see the tiny roller on the bottom of the spring. There are a couple of shots of the stamping off the same flute. It's a great player and was the one Fintan Vallely had on his web site then on eBay. The photos he took then I took don't do the instrument justice. But of course love is blind !

Wow what a unusual spring set up! Never saw that before...

[Aanvil]

Well now that's somethin' ya'll don't see everuday aint'it?

[an seanduine]

Yankee Ingenuity!

How d'ya like the way they work?


Bob

[vanwhel]

They play fine. It definitely takes less finger power to push them. Only 5 of the 8 keys have the rollers. The long F key, C# and C Natural do not have them. The Long F has had the spring replaced and the touch repaired. Nice job I might add. You really had to look for where the new touch was soldered on and shaped. I don't think the C and C# keys ever had them. The long F key is quite a bit stiffer than the other 5. It's a great playing flute and I wonder about its rarity since I have never heard or have seen such a thing myself. I think I'll write Jerry Schurr to see if he knows anything. Also thanks to Jon for posting the key on the forum for me.

[RudallRose]

just perused the US Patent office records and found nothing.
interesting

[vanwhel]

I just got an answer from Jerry Schurr and he has never seen anything like this in all his years as a tech and restorer. I also wrote Terry McGee to see if he knew or have seen anything like this. Jerry seemed to think this was a rare find. I haven't heard from Terry McGee yet will keep you posted.

[Terry McGee]

Might as well respond right here!

I have certainly heard of such things, but I can't really remember if and where I've actually seen examples. Perhaps one of the legendary makers like Monzani or Ward? It makes sense - friction between the tip of the spring and whatever it bears on can be a real issue.

In the worst case, the tip of the spring bears directly on wood. After a while it digs a hole, finds itself stuck, and the key resists opening and drags on closing.

Better flutes had (and have) metal plates set into the wood to provide a firm surface. Friction is still an issue, and the spring tip needs occasional greasing to keep the key responding nicely. (If you haven't greased your flute springs recently, now would be a good time to do it! Just pop the key, clean any gunge on the tip or the bottom of the slot, and put a tiny blob of cork grease or some similar grease on the tip of the spring before assembling. You might be considerably pleased with the improved smoothness.)

Double springs were introduced in the first half 19th century, and in theory this seems a good idea. The springs are of dissimilar metals, presumably to prevent metal fret. If the two springs (one on the key, one on the wood) were of equal length and stiffness, the tips of both would never move relatively to each other, and so there would be zero effective friction. But the wood-mounted spring was short and thin, and the thicker key-mounted spring flattened it to the body, effectively turning it into a stationary plate. So, I'm unconvinced that these have any advantage over the simple plate. It is possible that the brass key spring has work-hardened over the intervening years, and that the two springs were more equal in pressure when they were made. So we may not be seeing them at thier best.

The spring-tip roller seems like the ultimate solution. Getting it working at its best must be a bit tricky, as the maker can't just make the spring too long and cut it back until it works nicely. But, I guess, once you get one right, it should be easy to replicate. I imagine the roller pin would still benefit from lubrication from time to time.

It's quite likely that the longer keys didn't have the rollers - it's the shorter keys where friction usually shows up.

I'm interested that the keys are classically English-style "salt-spoons" and not what we expect in American flutes. It may well have been imported, but if so the claimed Patent is a bit cheeky! Then again, English makers often claimed patents that didn't exist, and this might simply be one of them.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention!

Terry

[vanwhel]

Terry,
Thank you for your response and posting it here. I always enjoy reading your website and really enjoy the articles on the New York Flute Makers.
Thank you again,
Vance

[Terry McGee]

Thanks, vanwhel

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. There is still a vast amount of work to be done on the US flute-makers. Probably won't be me, but I'd be glad to see someone pick it up and run with it!

Probably help to live in the US, possibly on a line between Washington (Library of Congress collection) and Vermillion, South Dakota (National Music Museum). There are probably other collections that would pull the centre of that line in various directions.

When I did my Self-Indulgent Flute-Makers' Tour back in 2002, I asked my travel agent about stopping over in Vermillion. She looked at her list of International Airports and then looked up at me scathingly. "I'm looking for an airport, not a colour." Unfortunately Vermillion wasn't on her list, and that, combined with an already drastically overpacked itinerary, meant it had to miss out. (For places I did get to, see http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/2002trip.htm)

Terry