RRC on ebay

[RudallRose]

typically they'll count the head/barrel as one piece
and the RH with Foot as another based on how it's stored in the case.
technically it's 5.....but many will say 4 or 3.

i agree the flute should see $3500 at the minimum.....but you never know.
Based on condition and serial number....it should be ~$4500....but the market......well, you know the rest.

[yellowhistler]

Since Hammy Hamilton re-french polished the head on the ornate Rudall #859 a few threads down I figured it occurred on Rudalls as well. What type of finish do they usually have? Linseed oil?

I can't claim to "know" what R&R did to finish their flutes, but from the bit of working cocus I have done, it does not appear to me to need any surface finish, nor, on close examination, do most cocus flutes show any sign (to my non-expert, non-cabinet-maker trained eyes) of applied surface finishes. The wood itself is very waxy - often described as "buttery", and if you surface finish to a very fine level of abrasive and then burnish up the surface with leather or cloth (or, I'm sure Jon C may chip in, buffing wheels with suitable softness), it comes to a pretty good polish untreated. If you get oil on it in the process of oiling the bore, sure, that glosses it up even more, as does application and burnishing of a waxy polish (e.g. Renaissance Wax or a furniture polish), but I don't think it is actually necessary. I suspect that Rose's famous polished bores may represent the nature of the timber in similar fashion rather than any special applied substances.

This is interesting. I have two identical flutes by George Butler, both stamped Haymarket London. I've had the bottom one for eleven years as my main playing flute (I've made a replacement barrel from blackwood, thats why it's darker, linseed oil finish btw) and the top one, in its case, is still in an unrenovated state. It was probably never played much because a hole for a cork dot key silencer was drilled through to the bore and likely started to leak very early and was perhaps overlooked as the reason to why it didn't play so well. Anyway, you can clearly see the difference in colour and glossyness. Center joints in particular. The top one has had some sort of finish applied because you can remove it with alcohol (acetone) and it also reacts negatively to water. This leads me to believe it's a shellac based substance. And anyone with a frensh polished coffe table will know the importance of using a coaster under your cold drink!. Several of the antique flutes I've owned have lost their sheen just by handling them and playing them.

[Paul Groff]

yellowhistler,

Re: your flutes "by Butler" -- I'm not up-to-date on flute scholarship, but I know that the concertinas labeled Butler, Haymarket were not made by that firm. The Butler-labeled concertinas I have seen were made by other shops including George Jones and Lachenals. At one point I dug up some references on Butler's business -- now that we have internet databases and search engines, you can doubtless find all that and more in a few minutes. Probably you know all this -- but a Butler flute might possibly be a very nice instrument, made by an excellent craftsman.

PG

[benhall.1]

On the price, I'm going to stick my neck out and say I think it will go for more than £4k sterling. Maybe this is wrong of me, but (a) I have a 'feeling' about this one and (b) there are quite a few interested parties to date just going by the bids, which appears to me, normally, to be a sign of something special about to happen. So, I'm saying something more like $6k. Lots more than some think. We'll see.

Again, only a feeling, but I reckon there still is a market, if the flute is special enough. After that, it's a question of what constitutes a 'special' flute.

[Jon C.]

Since Hammy Hamilton re-french polished the head on the ornate Rudall #859 a few threads down I figured it occurred on Rudalls as well. What type of finish do they usually have? Linseed oil?

I can't claim to "know" what R&R did to finish their flutes, but from the bit of working cocus I have done, it does not appear to me to need any surface finish, nor, on close examination, do most cocus flutes show any sign (to my non-expert, non-cabinet-maker trained eyes) of applied surface finishes. The wood itself is very waxy - often described as "buttery", and if you surface finish to a very fine level of abrasive and then burnish up the surface with leather or cloth (or, I'm sure Jon C may chip in, buffing wheels with suitable softness), it comes to a pretty good polish untreated. If you get oil on it in the process of oiling the bore, sure, that glosses it up even more, as does application and burnishing of a waxy polish (e.g. Renaissance Wax or a furniture polish), but I don't think it is actually necessary. I suspect that Rose's famous polished bores may represent the nature of the timber in similar fashion rather than any special applied substances.

This is interesting. I have two identical flutes by George Butler, both stamped Haymarket London. I've had the bottom one for eleven years as my main playing flute (I've made a replacement barrel from blackwood, thats why it's darker, linseed oil finish btw) and the top one, in its case, is still in an unrenovated state. It was probably never played much because a hole for a cork dot key silencer was drilled through to the bore and likely started to leak very early and was perhaps overlooked as the reason to why it didn't play so well. Anyway, you can clearly see the difference in colour and glossyness. Center joints in particular. The top one has had some sort of finish applied because you can remove it with alcohol (acetone) and it also reacts negatively to water. This leads me to believe it's a shellac based substance. And anyone with a frensh polished coffe table will know the importance of using a coaster under your cold drink!. Several of the antique flutes I've owned have lost their sheen just by handling them and playing them.
I am not saying makers have not finished flutes with shellac, I am just saying I haven't seen any Rudall's with a shellac finish. If the flute has an oil finish, it will flatten in sheen if alcohol is applied. Sometimes the make will use colored shellac to make the wood appear to be Cocuswood, I have found this out to late after buffing it off! Butler made nice playing flutes, but a lot of times they were not made of the best materials. With real Cocuswood, I will finish it, by using finer sandpaper, finishing with 2000 grit, then buffing with soft buffing wheel, you can then oil or wax it, but it is a very high shine, it will dull with alcohol, as it removes the oils in the wood.
BTW, you can buff your flutes with this method, and they will polish up nicely.

[Jon C.]

On the price, I'm going to stick my neck out and say I think it will go for more than £4k sterling. Maybe this is wrong of me, but (a) I have a 'feeling' about this one and (b) there are quite a few interested parties to date just going by the bids, which appears to me, normally, to be a sign of something special about to happen. So, I'm saying something more like $6k. Lots more than some think. We'll see.

Again, only a feeling, but I reckon there still is a market, if the flute is special enough. After that, it's a question of what constitutes a 'special' flute.

Well I am sure the seller would love that!
I stick to my estimate...
We can sell "Antique flute futures" and new stock market!

[jemtheflute]

We can sell "Antique flute futures" and new stock market!

Shhhh, Jon! He's an Accountant! Don't give him ideas!

[jemtheflute]

I can't claim to "know" what R&R did to finish their flutes, but from the bit of working cocus I have done, it does not appear to me to need any surface finish, nor, on close examination, do most cocus flutes show any sign (to my non-expert, non-cabinet-maker trained eyes) of applied surface finishes. The wood itself is very waxy - often described as "buttery", and if you surface finish to a very fine level of abrasive and then burnish up the surface with leather or cloth (or, I'm sure Jon C may chip in, buffing wheels with suitable softness), it comes to a pretty good polish untreated. If you get oil on it in the process of oiling the bore, sure, that glosses it up even more, as does application and burnishing of a waxy polish (e.g. Renaissance Wax or a furniture polish), but I don't think it is actually necessary. I suspect that Rose's famous polished bores may represent the nature of the timber in similar fashion rather than any special applied substances.

With real Cocuswood, I will finish it, by using finer sandpaper, finishing with 2000 grit, then buffing with soft buffing wheel, you can then oil or wax it, but it is a very high shine, it will dull with alcohol, as it removes the oils in the wood.
BTW, you can buff your flutes with this method, and they will polish up nicely.

Thanks for the corroboration, Jon! - Reassuring.

[an seanduine]

With regards to "french polishing" I think that while 2000 grit is quite fine, I would prefer Crocus cloth as even less aggressive and closer to the original pumice. I would then follow this with an unloaded muneca with olive oil and no more than a drop of meths.

Bob

[paddler]

Ah, I missed out again. This one just sold for 2409 pounds sterling. I hope one of you guys got it!

[jemtheflute]

So whose predictions were nearest?
I wasn't bidding on this one, but I can now reveal it was me (as some may have surmised given the geography) who went to look at it. It is pristine and plays beautifully as is (at 440 with pretty good intonation with slide about 20mm open), will be even better once cleaned up and given a minor overhaul. An absolute snip at the price.

[Jon C.]

It sold for $3760.00,my guess was $3,500-$4,000, so I came pretty close!

[Steampacket]

So the Rudall sold for 2409 sterling, I estimated 2400-2600 sterling. A nice price for an old flute, hope it's a good one. Congratulations to the new owner, anyone on this forum?

[jemtheflute]

And I said £1.8-2.5k....... (and it got £2.4k) Hey, we're not bad seers round here!

[Jon C.]

And I said £1.8-2.5k....... (and it got £2.4k) Hey, we're not bad seers round here!

We should all go to the races!