THE F (Band) Flute Thread

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THE F (Band) Flute Thread

Post by jemtheflute »

Well, I said a couple of weeks ago I'd start a general thread on F flutes, so yur tis. I intend in due course to post some technical data about F flutes and maybe find and post links to relevant past threads. Feel free to add links, pictures etc. and to discuss anything to do specifically with flutes in F.

In the mean time, here's a nice example currently on eBay that might interest a certain Mr McGee as it's vaguely in his neck of the woods..... Apparently it has an overall length of 51cm. In the other pictures on eBay one can see it is stamped with a "3" - presumably denoting that it is a "third flute" - i.e. pitched a minor third above a standard concert flute in D.

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The eBay blurb contains the following information:
This timber & ivory flute was made between 1837 and 1840 by Hermann Wrede when his business was located at 35 Lower White Cross St Cripplegate. In 1837 he was listed as a Mus.Wind Inst.& Pft & Importer. His trade mark was a Unicorn Head. The pouch that it is in appears to be the original. It is in great overall condition for the age of the flute. The only blemish is a very small as seen in the photos. The length is 51cm ...which would make it a flute (in spectacular condition, mind you), keyed in F.
Last edited by jemtheflute on Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by I.D.10-t »

Age and design would this most likely have been used in a band setting?
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by jemtheflute »

I.D.10-t wrote:Age and design would this most likely have been used in a band setting?
Almost certainly. I have (I seem to recall) seen some references to F flutes being called for in orchestral scores (maybe Verdi opera?) as, in effect, a special effect, but otherwise, so far as I know, they were most used in military bands in consort with treble Bbs at least, if not other members of the extended band flute family. The only other likely use would have been as a child's starter instrument until their hands grew sufficiently to cope with a D flute. The latter is something not unheard of in today's ITM and even Baroque flute circles! cf Claire Soubeyran's F version of a traverso.

BTW, clearly, from its date, the Wrede flute above is not, despite its then old-fashioned boxwood/ivory/1square key design, a "Baroque" flute. The embouchure and tone-holes are typical mid C19th.
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by JackCampin »

Did anybody include flutes along with brass in a military band that early?
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by Latticino »

Not sure if this one classifies as a band flute, but here is my latest flute renovation project. Sorry for the lousy photo, but it was the best my phone could handle. Here I have the rings off the headjoint to prepare to seal up the three hairline cracks the unlined headjoint sported (guess it isn't just the flute shrinking over the liner that can crack that...). You can also see where the short A (normally F) key block is cracked and needs repair. I've since fixed the cracks, cleaned up the (5) keys, and rethreaded the tennons. Still need to repad the keys, but couldn't help the urge to try it out, so I plugged the various holes and gave it a go. Seems to speak well, somewhere in F, but I'm not sure if it is at A 440 yet. Fun to play such a small flute, a real change from a D.

Flute is not labeled with a maker, but if I had to guess I'd assume that it is a mid 19th century English flute. If anyone is interested I can post some dimensions later today.

Having some trouble coming up with the small, thin pads required to finalize, so if anyone has a suggestion I would appreciate it.

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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by JackCampin »

I've got an F flute much like that and I've been trying the silicone sealant approach to making pads (as described by somebody here a year or so ago). Not a roaring success as yet, but I may get there eventually.
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by Latticino »

Thanks for the tip. I've thought about using the silicone also, but will have to do some research on the technique. Might also look into making some out of closed cell foam sheet, as I've read some makers/renovators do these days as well.
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by jemtheflute »

@ Jack re: band flutes in mixed instrument military bands - I have no idea in terms of firm evidence whether F flutes would ever have been used in mixed instrument or predominantly brass bands, but I suspect not from the general impression (it is no more than that) I have developed from reading over the years. Their normal use was in the "corps of drums" and the related flute marching bands. Flute-use in military wind bands was probably mostly somewhat later in the C19th into the C20th and they would primarily have used flutes and piccolos in Eb ("Db"), not the F and Bb trebles.

@ Latticino - yes, that certainly is an F band flute and I agree it looks likely to be mid-late C19th English. Please do post overall, sounding and C#-Eb dimensions.
For your pads, I can tell you I have recently experimented with closed cell neoprene foam, and although I may not have obtained the correct type, my experience of it is that it isn't a good choice. I was working on a flute for a vegan customer and ended up facing a neoprene foam backing with thin silicone rubber cut from one of those temporary sink plug rubber discs (like this, except I found a black one...). That works well (so far), but isn't preferable to leather. A young friend of mine has a Tom Aebi flute which, when acquired, had (Tom's original) neoprene foam pads - and I really was not impressed by them. I'd suggest using clarinet pads but, if necessary, thinning them (there are instructions on Terry McGee's website somewhere, or I'm sure I've described the process before here on C&F). Those key-cups don't look ultra-shallow and, if you get the right size pads, you probably ought not to need to thin them. If you can't try out pads with the help of a friendly wind tech who has stock, you'll just have to order in the size you think from measuring the inner diameter of the key cups plus the next size down. They come in 0.5mm gradations down to considerably smaller diameters than you'll need. My experience is that you sometimes also need to be prepared to adjust the key action and rise and cup/shank angle by bending the key itself - they are often relatively crudely made and were never set up as carefully as they might have been originally! Floating and re-floating the newly fitted pads and repeated leak testing is also usually necessary - you can't just glue 'em in and assume they'll be OK! Oh, and remember to check the state of the key-beds - the wood around the tone-holes.
Last edited by jemtheflute on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by jemtheflute »

Here are some links to recent related threads. If I can find time, I may go trawling for older ones. If anyone else (Denny????) fancies relieving me of that task, please do find and post!

F Flute - Pratten's, Rudall & Rose etc.
Willing to swap Rudall Carte F Flute Cocus for Ebonite model
WTB: antique F flute (some comparative dimensions and YT links in this one).
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by Denny »

Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free
It's dizzying, the possibilities. Ashes, Ashes all fall down.
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by jemtheflute »

I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by Denny »

yeah, sure....just keep to the really simple questions, okay?
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by david quinn »

The F flute in a Corps of Drums or marching flute band is used primarily to play a counter melody, when the B Flat is used to play the main melody. In Larger bands sometimes their will be a F Part 1 and F part 2.

Their are many f flutes about, most marching bands played in High Pitch but in the 70's onwards a lot went to 440 concert pitch most military flutes with a nato number will play at 440.

This link will show how marching flute band/Corps of drum music was set out 1st b flat 2nd b flat 3rd b flat, F, Eb, Bb Bass and Eb piccolo

http://www.yorkshirecorpsofdrums.com/Music.html
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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by plunk111 »

Slightly off topic, I know, but I wanted to mention the way I've been replacing pads. After removing the key and then the old grunge in the cup and cleaning/polishing the key, I do the following: 1 - push the cup against some simulated felt (I got it at a craft store) to make a dent in the shape of the pad; 2 - cut out the pad; 3 - drip some hot glue (my wife does crafts) into the cup; 4 - carefully place the pad on top of the hot glue and wait a couple of minutes; 5 - replace the key. So far, after about 5 -10 flutes, there are no leaks.

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Re: THE F Band Flute Thread

Post by david quinn »

plunk111 wrote:Slightly off topic, I know, but I wanted to mention the way I've been replacing pads. After removing the key and then the old grunge in the cup and cleaning/polishing the key, I do the following: 1 - push the cup against some simulated felt (I got it at a craft store) to make a dent in the shape of the pad; 2 - cut out the pad; 3 - drip some hot glue (my wife does crafts) into the cup; 4 - carefully place the pad on top of the hot glue and wait a couple of minutes; 5 - replace the key. So far, after about 5 -10 flutes, there are no leaks.

Pat
The way i do it is to get amber Shellac if the pads are orange, or white shellac if the pads are white. I remove all gunk from cup melt some shellac into the cup then i put the pad underneath the cup and remelt the shellac with a flamless torch as their are no carbon deposits on the key.
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