Chiff and Fipple Forums

Ok....one of the biggest problems I've had when trying to play my simple system flute is the intonation. Coming from a somewhat classical background, you are supposed to keep each and every note at A 440 and each note should have the same sound qualities as the next. So when I pick up my rosewood flute the notes are not quite in line and some are wispier/weaker than others it throws me a bit. My question is, is this ok and I'm bringing preconceived notions into this, or is this a problem with the flute itself? Thanks,

Eden

piedwhistler wrote:I'm bringing preconceived notions into this

Yes.

Ok then, good to know

I come from a classical background and had the exact issues. The longer you play simple flute (or I think any flute for that matter), the more you'll be able to bring out what you want from it. That said, the simple flute does have tonal and intonation differences on every note--that's what makes it so hard to play, IMO. Takes a lot of time and practice to lock in. I think it's taken me a year to get the best out of my current Burns standard, and I'm still working on tone and intonation (just checked my tuning 20 minutes ago).

As is said over and over, learning how to direct the airflow down into the flute helps with intonation and getting the best out of a simple flute. Instead of redirecting the air up and down along the cutting embouchure edge, I find I need to make my lip embouchure hole smaller to go to the second octave, thus keeping the airflow going down--not out, up, across. Does this make sense?

jason

Also the irregular intonation is part of the beauty of our flutes.
The Boehm can sound sterile by comparison.

Jason- Thanks! Yes, that does make a lot of sense. It kind of feels like the airstream needs to go deeper into the simple system than it does in the Boehm.

Also, with the Boehm it is generally suggested (I think) that you open your throat up as wide as possible for the lower register. I also let a good bit of air in my cheeks when playing. Do you ever do this on your simple system flute? Thanks!

Jim- Good point. I had wondered that.....

Eden

jim stone wrote: The Boehm can sterile by comparison.

The Boehm DO sound sterile by comparison.

So how much attention do you all generaly pay to your intonation, as far as when you are playing alone (I know that obviously if you are playing with others you want to be in tune with them)? I sat down with a tuner a couple of times and just about lost my mind

I'm a n00b. I've only been playing any kind of flute for 15 months now, and that has been exclusively on wooden, simple system flutes (8-keys). Even so, in my opinion, it is vital to be able to control your intonation on each note. I don't buy this "imperfection is part of the charm" story - I think the player, not the instrument, needs to be in control.

I've gone through phases - repeated, I'm afraid - where my tone gets better, and then I notice that my intonation is off, so I fix that and my tone gets worse, then my tone gets better, etc etc. Overall, though, my tone and intonation are gradually improving, and I'm confident that I will get to a sort of adequate stage, on both tone and intonation, one day. (I will never 'make it' because I never do - I've been playing fiddle for 45 years, and I'm not there on that yet.)

Now, is this process different for a n00b and for an experienced Boehm fluter, coming new to the wooden, simple system flute? I would think that it's likely to be analogous, but not the same precisely. So, given that it may be analogous, I thought my comments might help ...

benhall.1 wrote:I'm a n00b. I've only been playing any kind of flute for 15 months now, and that has been exclusively on wooden, simple system flutes (8-keys). Even so, in my opinion, it is vital to be able to control your intonation on each note. I don't buy this "imperfection is part of the charm" story - I think the player, not the instrument, needs to be in control.

The Boehm was designed partly to even out tuning and to eliminate 'weaker' notes. It is unlikely that our flutes will ever
match it in that regard. The holes are placed in non-optimal places so as to accommodate a human hand. Lots
of compromises. Boehm fixed that
by covering the holes with keys. The result is a bit like a homogenized fruit, without pits or irregularities.
I prefer something wilder. Sure one should try to control intonation, sometimes one must blow the flute
in tune, but I think it's unrealistic to suppose
one will sound like a classical flautist. Just as well, IMO. Also some notes will sound less strong than others, which isn't to say
one shouldn't work to improve them. But I don't think it's as vital as you do.

I've been at it 7 years. Here's me, out of tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7rrfy9r ... re=related

I have a recording of an old "Thistle & Shamrock" radio show in which Rod Cameron (I think) likens the sound of a wooden Irish flute to the spirit of a squirrel running wild in church.

I don't know if that will help shed any light on things for you, but it might.

benhall.1- I agree with you in some respects, I like things to be in tune. Maybe it was just drilled into by private instructors and directors

Jim- I thought perhaps that might be the case. Nature of the beast I suppose. As an aside, are you using throat vibrato in your clip? That is very interesting. Classical flute playing tosses vibrato into nearly every note and I have been working on controling it, but perhaps I don't have to?

crookedtune- LOL! Now when I play I will perpetually have the mental picture of a rodent with a fluffy tail accosting parishioners. Super!

piedwhistler wrote:I like things to be in tune.

Here's the question for you: What do you mean by "in tune"?

That is a good question MTGuru! The classical perception is "in tune" = A 440. But I read in Grey Larsen's book that that might not be the same definition used in ITM.

Re: intonation--I work hard to play as in tune, i.e. with equal temperament at A=440, as possible. But I have found that in Irish Trad, just intonation is very important as well. Thus, I usually practice intonation by using a drone, e.g. my metronome plays an A=440, and getting each note as locked in to that note harmonically as possible. Use different drone notes to tune all notes based on the major 3rd, 4th, and 5th intervals as well as octaves. C# will be flat no matter what (unless, I believe, you have a Cnat key to vent it up), so get used to it, listen to how the masters play it and integrate it into their playing.

low D tends to be flat

f# tends to be flat

A and B tend to be sharp

c# is usually flat

middle d tends to be sharp

Even the great players play out of tune at times, e.g. Matt Molloy. In ITM, the rhythm is king and sometimes intonation will take a back seat. Some greats are always in tune, e.g. Kevin Crawford and Michael McGoldrick. I think they both play Grinters--that may have something to do with it, but intonation on flute I believe is 90% up to the player and 10% the flute (maybe 60/40, but no more than that).

As you can see, intonation/tone on the simple flute is a huge, endless can o' worms.

Best of luck,

jason