Intonation and tone

[jim stone]

Jim's imagination... is too fertile!

You have NO idea! Heh, heh, heh...

(Ferdle?)

[MTGuru]

So Boehm players sound STOY-rul?

No, that would be STURL.

[Cork]

I like things to be in tune.

Here's the question for you: What do you mean by "in tune"?

OK, MTGuru, on this we agree.

I began with Boehm flutes decades ago, and I learned to play them in both Just Intonation and Equal Temperament, yes, all on one and the same flute, and so Boehm flutes are quite flexible in that regard.

A bit over two weeks ago, in fact on Saint Patrick's Day, I took delivery of a brand new Copley & Boegli D flute, with eight keys. My first impression of the flute was that it has an astonishingly accurate scale. It not only plays in Just Intonation wonderfully well but equally well plays in Equal Temperament, all around the circle of fifths.

And, as far as tone goes, for those of you at C&F who could peg a Boehm flute into some sort of "classical" form, you have a lesson yet to learn. For instance, Boehm invented it, Lot improved it and Cooper made it even better, but it has a flexibility of tone which no simple system flute can match. You ITM players want a dark and reedy tone? Well, a Boehm flute can do that to perfection, and much more. After all, how did simple system flute makers for the most part get put out of business about a hundred years ago? Hmm?

I like them both, but for different reasons. One plays one way and one plays another, but both are both fun and satisfying.

Live well, and live long!

[talasiga]

..........
And, as far as tone goes, for those of you at C&F who could peg a Boehm flute into some sort of "classical" form, you have a lesson yet to learn.
.......

yes, and why did a few equate classical with Boehm flute exclusivesly anyway?
Isn't Baroque music within the Classical ambit?

[jim stone]

I like things to be in tune.

Here's the question for you: What do you mean by "in tune"?

OK, MTGuru, on this we agree.

I began with Boehm flutes decades ago, and I learned to play them in both Just Intonation and Equal Temperament, yes, all on one and the same flute, and so Boehm flutes are quite flexible in that regard.

A bit over two weeks ago, in fact on Saint Patrick's Day, I took delivery of a brand new Copley & Boegli D flute, with eight keys. My first impression of the flute was that it has an astonishingly accurate scale. It not only plays in Just Intonation wonderfully well but equally well plays in Equal Temperament, all around the circle of fifths.

And, as far as tone goes, for those of you at C&F who could peg a Boehm flute into some sort of "classical" form, you have a lesson yet to learn. For instance, Boehm invented it, Lot improved it and Cooper made it even better, but it has a flexibility of tone which no simple system flute can match. You ITM players want a dark and reedy tone? Well, a Boehm flute can do that to perfection, and much more. After all, how did simple system flute makers for the most part get put out of business about a hundred years ago? Hmm?

I like them both, but for different reasons. One plays one way and one plays another, but both are both fun and satisfying.

Live well, and live long!

Okay, here is a sincere question.

Boehm flutes are lot more readily available, fewer waiting lists, and you can get a good one for much less money than a good keyed simple system costs, typically. If I understand what’s being said, one can do on Boehm flutes pretty much what we do on conical simple system flutes, and about as easily. Also it can do more. One can get the dark, reedy sound we are after, and one knows from people like Joannie Madden and Noel Rice one can ornament on them pretty well.

So why do we bother? Seems like we are throwing time and money away. Lots of it.
I've not much played Boehm flutes, so perhaps it's just ignorance on my part.

[piedwhistler]

...

[jim stone]

Well, what I believe is that for maybe 1500 dollars one can get a pretty good Boehm flute, entirely chromatic,
etc. I could buy one in a store today. A simple system 8-keyed flute of equivalent quality would cost
over 3000 dollars and would involve a wait of usually one to several years.

[piedwhistler]

Very good point about the wait thing. And yes, for that price you could probably get a decent Boehm. And as a bonus, if it is made of silver that appreciates where wood does not.

[Akiba]

In my experience, it's a lot easier to play Irish music on a simple flute than a Boehm flute, mainly due to the f# fingering. On a simple flute, D scale is the same as C scale on Boehm. On my Boehm, I like playing Irish tunes in C. Also, in order to play Irish well on a Boehm, I think you need a very good flute with great action and balance, perfect pads. A really good Boehm costs thousands $. I have an excellent Yamaha student model (the 200AD) that cost $500 new; it's the flute I use in the classical duets link below. I love it, but it's not quite good enough for me to think about playing Irish on it full time. Does great for the off keys (G minor, D minor, C), but D is hard--try playing Green Mountain on a Boehm with all the f# rolls and you'll see what I mean. Also, I now have a hard time loving the tone of any metal flute; wood just sounds so much better, richer, more authentic.

[jim stone]

In my experience, it's a lot easier to play Irish music on a simple flute than a Boehm flute, mainly due to the f# fingering. On a simple flute, D scale is the same as C scale on Boehm. On my Boehm, I like playing Irish tunes in C. Also, in order to play Irish well on a Boehm, I think you need a very good flute with great action and balance, perfect pads. A really good Boehm costs thousands $. I have an excellent Yamaha student model (the 200AD) that cost $500 new; it's the flute I use in the classical duets link below. I love it, but it's not quite good enough for me to think about playing Irish on it full time. Does great for the off keys (G minor, D minor, C), but D is hard--try playing Green Mountain on a Boehm with all the f# rolls and you'll see what I mean. Also, I now have a hard time loving the tone of any metal flute; wood just sounds so much better, richer, more authentic.

OK, but this seems to be denying something Cork said earlier (mean the last sentence). Also pricewise,
it's easy enough to have thousands of dollars in simple system flutes in different keys. And long
waits to get' em. Why not go out today and get a good Boehm instead? It can do anything....
We're serious musicians, many of us.

Joannie et al deal with the F#, apparently.

[jemtheflute]

I now have a hard time loving the tone of any metal flute; wood just sounds so much better, richer, more authentic.

As I replied to one commentator on my YouTube clip linked up-thread, what about wooden Bohm flutes, then? Mind you, they're expensive!

I don't think the F# roll thing is all that hard on a Bohm - certainly not if one has a decent level of proficiency..... and of course the Bohm mechanism, even on cheapish flutes is, if well set up, quite capable of the necessary speed for ITM articulation..... but overall it just doesn't quite cut it as well as an open hole, non-platter-keyed flute (pun intended ). Remember, I started on Bohm and achieved reasonable competence at trad music (not at classical) thereon, but was not satisfied with it and changed over, expending not a little effort in so doing.

(EDIT: just to add that experience of playing whistles as well as Bohm flute meant I had a pretty clear idea of what open holes offered advantageously compared to platter keys, so my choice to convert to SS flute wasn't entirely a shot in the dark or based on uncomprehending idealism etc.)

For me, the reasons for preferring conoid bore Simple System (also fully chromatic, if harder to gain pro-level Classical proficiency upon, and with other well-documented disadvantages by comparison to Bohm for that use) are tone-colour and the crispness and immediacy of the articulation on directly fingered tone-holes. Even a Simple System on a Bohm body in wood and with an elliptical embouchure has a different tone to a conoid flute - yes, you can play it dark and reedy, but it will still sound more open - like a cylinder-bore flute! This is the same reasoning as for preferring baroque music on a baroque traverso to on Bohm - it can be very beautiful on the latter, but it somehow doesn't sound as "right" as it does on a period instrument - OK, that is a subjective, learnt perception, but not an unconsidered one!

[Denny]

ya left out the part about Boehms being too loud

[benhall.1]

I love the look and feel of my flutes. I don't think I'd have got into it if all that was available was the metal Boehm sort.

[jemtheflute]

It's all aesthetics, in the end!

[m31]

You ITM players want a dark and reedy tone? Well, a Boehm flute can do that to perfection, and much more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeqWduZOkDw

Despite the excellent playing by all, I don't hear a simple system flute.

In fact, I don't quite see the point of comparing the two; like comparing a baritone ukulele with a tenor guitar or tenor banjo.