Finger Hole Comparison

[Doug_Tipple]

I agree that in principle you can compress the finger hole layout on a conical-bore flute as compared to a similar flute with a cylindrical bore. However, as I have mentioned before, this difference is sometimes not very much. The photo below shows a comparison of the popular 3-piece, conical-bore polymer flute by Tony Dixon and my own 3-piece Tipple pvc low D flute with a cylindrical bore. Without getting into the pros and cons of larger finger holes versus smaller finger holes, the photo shows that the actual finger stretches to cover the holes is similar. Having offset finger holes is also a plus for those with smaller hands, although it is certainly easier to cover the smaller holes on the Dixon flute. You can enlarge the photo by clicking on it.

[Aanvil]

Its the stretch from R3 to R4 that is the problematic one ain't it?

Even with the offset that is still some space to cover on top of the fact the "pinky" being one of the smaller digits.

[Denny]

R4 is what friends are for

[Doug_Tipple]

Its the stretch from R3 to R4 that is the problematic one ain't it?

Even with the offset that is still some space to cover on top of the fact the "pinky" being one of the smaller digits.

The distance between the 5th and 6th holes is the largest stretch on a cylindrical flute, but I really don't see it as problematic on a low D flute, anyway. Yes, on a low B bansuri it is a problem for me. I have rather small hands for a man, but by routinely stretching my fingers playing piano and flute, I can do that stretch easily, especially using piper's grip. Of course, you could reduce the stretch by making the 6th finger hole smaller in diameter, but that would effectively wipe out any hope of playing a D#, a tradeoff that I'm not willing to make.

Anavil, unless you have an unusual hand, the "pinky" is the smallest digit. Forget about trying to use it to cover the 6th hole.

[Aanvil]

No, I'm 6'2+ and have large hands and long fingers.

I was just pointing out that spacing is going be where the problems are in general.

You probably remember (or not) I ordered a D flute from you a number of years back.

Its perfectly playable just the way you have it set up... and you made the holes in- line.

Its a really good cylindrical flute.

I imagine with your lip plate and new emb. cuts they are even that much better.

I don't think anyone can touch your flutes in "bang for buck".

[chas]

There's a lot more to the cylindrical/conical issue than whether one person with small hands can cover the holes.

I have what is probably inherited arthritis in my hands. Father has it, a couple of his sisters, his mother. . . I first noticed it at around 23, when spending a couple of weeks drafting. I've sold many flutes due to hand pain, including both D and E Olwell bamboo flutes. There are many issues, including hole size, stretch, and just the fact that the diameter of the flute doesn't change. I have no problem with small-holes conical flutes, including those at A415. I've also found that "ergonomic" hole layout does more harm than good for me.

This isn't to say that my experience is universal, but that nobody's experience is universal.

[Cork]

I agree that in principle you can compress the finger hole layout on a conical-bore flute as compared to a similar flute with a cylindrical bore. However, as I have mentioned before, this difference is sometimes not very much. The photo below shows a comparison of the popular 3-piece, conical-bore polymer flute by Tony Dixon and my own 3-piece Tipple pvc low D flute with a cylindrical bore. Without getting into the pros and cons of larger finger holes versus smaller finger holes, the photo shows that the actual finger stretches to cover the holes is similar. Having offset finger holes is also a plus for those with smaller hands, although it is certainly easier to cover the smaller holes on the Dixon flute. You can enlarge the photo by clicking on it.

Not all, but most cylinder bore flutes have a slight stretch between the fifth and sixth holes.

The offset third and sixth holes of your flutes, however, help to reduce such stretch to a minimum.

Really, I think you offer a quality flute, at a very attractive price, but be sure to include the lip plate!

[srt19170]

I agree that in principle you can compress the finger hole layout on a conical-bore flute as compared to a similar flute with a cylindrical bore. However, as I have mentioned before, this difference is sometimes not very much.

I think the purpose of making a conical-bore flute is usually better tuning. That said, it would be more telling to compare to a flute that has been designed for a more accommodating layout, like a Casey Burns small-handed flute. The differences in that case are very significant.

[Doug_Tipple]

I think the purpose of making a conical-bore flute is usually better tuning. That said, it would be more telling to compare to a flute that has been designed for a more accommodating layout, like a Casey Burns small-handed flute. The differences in that case are very significant.

Although I have never seen a Casey Burns small-handed flute, other than in photographs, I do expect that a finger hole comparison would show more significant differences between my cylindrical flute and Casey's ergonomically designed conical flute for small hands, as you mentioned. However, if I am not mistaken, the Burns small-handed flute is somewhat of an anomally in the world of conical flutes. The Dixon polymer flute in my comparison is probably more representative of the average conical flute in terms of finger hole layout, excepting maybe the small size of the finger holes. But, as my wife likes to remind me, I could be wrong about that.

With regard to the comment that "the purpose of making conical flutes is usually better tuning", if that were true, the modern flutes in the orchestra would be conical, as they once were. However, since the advent of the Boehm flute with the tapered headjoint, orchestra flutes now have cylindrical bodies. More simply-designed cylindrical flutes with a tapered wedge insert in the headjoint can also produce good tuning. Without wanting to get into a flute flame war, I think that the purpose of making conical flutes is to continue the tradition of making a folk flute that has the distinctive sound and appearance of a wooden Irish flute.

[highwood]

the conical myth? In Nederveen'ps book I note that for the formula for placing holes that "for every instrument one and the same formula is found" - he is talking about closed and open ended, conical or cylindrical instruments - though the distance from the end is measured differently the distance between holes will not be changed. It seems tuning (between octaves) would also be equally problamatic and both conical and cylindrical wind instruments need pertubations to work well. Just my 2cents, I have not made conical whistles yet so take my comments as more theoritical than backed by practice, ymmv.

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[Cork]

...With regard to the comment that "the purpose of making conical flutes is usually better tuning", if that were true, the modern flutes in the orchestra would be conical, as they once were. However, since the advent of the Boehm flute with the tapered headjoint, orchestra flutes now have cylindrical bodies. More simply-designed cylindrical flutes with a tapered wedge insert in the headjoint can also produce good tuning. Without wanting to get into a flute flame war, I think that the purpose of making conical flutes is to continue the tradition of making a folk flute that has the distinctive sound and appearance of a wooden Irish flute.

I have two, six-hole keyless wood flutes as made by David Swindler*, each having a cylindrical bore and a tapered head, ala Boehm, nice flutes.

True, they both have a slight stretch between the 5th and the 6th holes, but nothing abnormal.

However, as the question, could you have access to a thicker PVC material, as to then make a similarly tapered head joint?

Add the lip plate, and then kiss the wedge goodbye.

BTW, if my understanding is correct, it seems that David Swindler got his original plans from no less than Terry McGee.

(* = one of which I got from you, thank you!)

[Doug_Tipple]

Partly in response to replies on this thread, I have redesigned my cylindrical-bore pvc flutes by making the 6th finger hole smaller, thus compressing the fingering between the 5th and 6th finger holes. With the new design I think that my flutes are comparable in finger hole spacing to that of some of the well-known wooden and polymer conical flutes. To see details of the comparitive date and to read my comments and conclusions, please visit the Flute Finger Hole Comparison page at my website.

[Cork]

...I have two, six-hole keyless wood flutes as made by David Swindler*, each having a cylindrical bore and a tapered head, ala Boehm, nice flutes.

True, they both have a slight stretch between the 5th and the 6th holes, but nothing abnormal.

However, as the question, could you have access to a thicker PVC material, as to then make a similarly tapered head joint?

Add the lip plate, and then kiss the wedge goodbye.

BTW, if my understanding is correct, it seems that David Swindler got his original plans from no less than Terry McGee.

(* = one of which I got from you, thank you!)

Let me refine my earlier post, please.

For instance, could you have access to a thicker walled PVC material, to allow for the manufacture of an internally tapered head joint, ala David Swindler's flutes?

And, come to think of it, it might not then be necessary to use a lip plate, at all, while also tossing the wedge out the window, too.

If it's true that Terry McGee could have specifications, then perhaps he could provide workable details, as a starter.

Of course, all of that could increase your cost of production, but perhaps some of your clients could be willing to consider a higher price, as worth it.

That is, in addition to your standard flutes, perhaps you could also offer a Tipple-Swindler-McGee flute.