Learning New Settings of Tunes?

[ImNotIrish]

I am posting here because of the recent thread on the Posting Clips segment. It occurred to me that I struggle with learning a new setting of a tune that I have already learned. I just can't seem to get the original setting out of my head long enough to make room for another version. Anyone else have this problem? If so, how do you deal with it?
Arbo

[peeplj]

The answer to your question is Time.

Over time, you will slowly, without ever realize you are doing it, make subtle changes to how you play the tune. You'll incorporate variations you heard someone else do, or maybe a nice little phrase in the B part that you heard some where, a bit from here, a bit from there...

You start by learning a tune like someone else plays it, you wind up with a tune that's recognizable, that still fits, that can still be played perfectly well alongside the original, but that's uniquely yours.

This is a slow process and happens over years of playing a tune.

Disclaimer: this is my own thought on the subject. I can pretty much guarantee that there will be plenty of people who disagree.

--James

[ImNotIrish]

Ah, James... indeed you're on to something. I suppose I shouldn't stress about it. It is true that over time, and numerous runs through a tune I have picked up some variations of other player's interpretations. It's just when I sit down and begin to try and learn something I'm familiar with, I get frustrated and revert back to my original take. I guess more patience is in order?
Arbo

[peeplj]

Well, there are two related abilities that I think apply.

One is the ability to pick up a new tune on the fly from another player or players. That's a valuable skill.

A different application of the same skill is to pick up changes in tunes you know on the fly. I'll agree that this can be harder.

--James

[Aanvil]

Ah, James... indeed you're on to something. I suppose I shouldn't stress about it. It is true that over time, and numerous runs through a tune I have picked up some variations of other player's interpretations. It's just when I sit down and begin to try and learn something I'm familiar with, I get frustrated and revert back to my original take. I guess more patience is in order?
Arbo

Depends on what you mean new tune settings.

In my short time I've already come across tunes of similar name and similar structure but they are in fact different. For example I know two versions of "The Rainy Day" and "Boil the Breakfast Early" Both the same but different enough where you can't play one with the other.

If you are just trying to pick out variations in the same tune that shouldn't prove to be too difficult.

Regardless of what I'm trying to learn I find if I break the phrases up into small bits or chunk I can digest them better and faster and not get caught up the other tune.

I use Transcribe to pick out chunks and I loop them. I slow them down if I have to.

Once I've got one part I move to the next and then string them together.

I imagine many do this in some manner or another.

I'm sure one can pick things up via the sponge method but I don't like waiting.


"On the Fly"... yeah, I think that just comes with practice.

[ImNotIrish]

So, for sake of clarification, let's take Josh D's and my take on the Fahy jig. Clearly we have two different settings. Not variations, but different settings. I am having a hard time getting Josh's version in my head, let alone my fingers.
Arbo

[Aanvil]

Where can I hear that version of his... and yours?

[ImNotIrish]

Where can I hear that version of his... and yours?

Do a search on the posting clips thread.
Arbo

[Flutered]

I tend to find that it's easier to adapt to a different setting or variation if you are playing with somebody - you're listening to them as you play and you'll tend to modify your version. Thing is, you go home and play the tune again and your own version comes back! Of course, do this a few times and the other variants begin to stick or parts of them stick etc., the bits you like

[andyras3]

A few months ago I spent a couple of weeks learning the leagcy jig, lovely tune difficult parts but I got it eventually.

Then I was lucky enough to attend a workshop with Kevin Crawford who set about a different version of the Legacy jig, I just couldn't get it, it was as if by brain was wired for June McCormacks version and just wouldn't/couldn't change.

I still havn't revisted my recordings to get Kevin's version, I guess I'm happy witht he first one :-;.

I still havn't heard Josh's version....

[gorjuswrex]

Where can I hear that version of his... and yours?

Josh's is on page 109 and Arbo's is a page before I think.Posting threads topic.

[Gordon]

It seems to me that different tune settings are adapted by/for specific types of players and their regional or personal ideosychratic styles. For eg, someone with a huffy Northern piping style will play tunes differently - in a different setting - than someone with a more fluid, melodic style, like the Galway style. I think this is why - depending on our original point of reference - one setting falls easily into our mental and physical grasp, while others are all but impossible to learn. It's not just the tune setting, it's the entire approach to playing.

The question, it seems to me, is whether to spend more time learning multiple stylistic approaches, or a large catalog of tunes in a style that comes naturally to you, based on early learnings or exposures. I don't say one way is better than the other - certainly, learning outside the original approach is beneficial, probably unavoidable, and most likely desired, as we generally don't want to limit our abilities. Still, the constant quest to learn every setting, and the approach behind these tune variations may be a bigger order than just getting it in your head; sometimes it's best to just try to be particularly good at what you already play.

IMO, there's no reason to learn multiple versions of the same tune (not talking minor variations here), unless a) you like the other version(s), too, and/or b) the people you play with play the tune differently than you do. There's nothing more frustrating than sitting down with others, playing a common tune, and finding that your version won't fit with theirs - it might as well be a different tune, which - in a way - it is. Outside of this, I think you should play the version that sits most naturally in your brain and fingers - it's the one that clearly works best for you.

[ImNotIrish]

Kevin,

here's the lnk to my version of Fahy's. I couldn't get Josh's link to work for me.
Arbo

http://www.box.net/shared/gc5van4psp

[TheSpoonMan]

The question, it seems to me, is whether to spend more time learning multiple stylistic approaches, or a large catalog of tunes in a style that comes naturally to you, based on early learnings or exposures.

I disagree here. I'd say that on the contrary, just like many tunes can fit a single player's style, there are many settings on one tune that can also fit his style. That's definitely been my experience.

[jemtheflute]

Going back to Arbo's initial question, I think this has things to do with how our brains work - familiarity and memory. I've commented elsewhere on C&F in the past about my perception (I have no scientific basis for this) that most humans (musicians or not) seem to have particularly acute recollection of melody. We all remember melodies of things like nursery rhymes, other songs, TV jingles and themes from our childhood very accurately in later life, even if we haven't heard or thought about them for years. If someone plays or sings such a piece, we immediately spot a "wrong" note if they make a mistake or have a different version, even if we can't play or sing the thing from memory ourselves - and we usually can and will quite quickly get it "right" according to our recollection. A similar thing can happen when we know, e.g. a particular recording of a classical piece very well - when we hear a different performance with a different interpretative approach, emphases/rhythm/tempi etc., it will just sound "wrong", make us feel uncomfortable and dissatisfied with it until/unless we force ourselves to be open-minded about it. (Of course, sometimes a different approach from the one we are familiar with can be a positively revelatory experience: "Wow, I'd never found that piece so exciting/moving/etc. before!")

I think this tendency is what is coming into play for Arbo. It isn't so much the muscle memory factor of fingering patterns (though I do think that probably contributes - it will mess us about learning a new tune that has a similar but slightly different pattern in it to one we already know, for example) and playing-technical aspects that make it hard to learn a new setting/version of a familiar tune; rather it is that knowing one setting very well, that is what our mind's ear expects and (conservative creatures that we tend to be) anything else feels odd and our initial subconscious response is to reject or shy away from it. It causes a kind of involuntary mental block. Our melodic memory is firmly ingrained with our familiar version and as players (especially as trad players from memory, not sight-reading dots) our muscle memory for patterns of motion reinforces that. Those things have to be recognised and mentally accommodated; then one can try to move beyond them in accepting a different version/setting/interpretation as a listener and even as a player.