Life's great trials

[jemtheflute]

[I'd have a lot more to say if we could only start to talk about European Oak and American Oak casks for maturing
whisky

NNNNooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......................!


Now that would be a great trial (if you had to do the testing......). ( )

[Cathy Wilde]

This is only personal observation, but I've felt that my cocuswood flute, which alas makes MY lip itch without its protective tape (I've also noticed I've seemed to be "gasping" more while playing it and wondered ... ) is a "harder" and more dense wood than the others. I'm only speculating but this density seems to lend to a bit more brilliance and a quicker response ... it's almost like playing a silver flute in the response category. I also wonder if the harder woods allow for thinner walls, which would allow for more buzz and resonance too?

I have a blackwood Murray flute that almost matches the cocus in terms of tightness of grain and thus overall "hardness." It's even shiny, to the point where parts look like black glass. But every other blackwood flute I've played has been, in varying degrees, more open-grained and thus a bit mellower (although embouchure cut and style of play has lots to do with that) with a bit of a slower response and less brilliance; my two boxwood flutes are the "spongiest" of all ... my boxwood Murray, in fact, seems almost made of cork (and absorbs moisture like it, too!).

I've recorded myself playing on them all, however, and can't detect THAT much difference; the boxwood Murray's the most obviously different, but I play that the most too so I might just be used to hearing it.

But as to feel, the difference between the cocus flute or the glass-hard blackwood Murray and the corky-boxwood Murray is night and day. Everything else falls in between.

Sorry about your luck, Doc

[Henke]

Common now Doc. You have to tell us what sort of flute it is now! There's no reason for you to hold it in.
You're not in hospital I hope!
(anyone heard from him?)

NNNNooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......................!


Now that would be a great trial (if you had to do the testing......). ( )

Maybe that sort of discussion is better suited for the Pub (both here and in real life). It's better to discuss it over a couple of wee drams. As with most stuff, theory is less fun than practice when it comes to
whisky

[Guinness]

...impossible to come to any real scientific conclusions on this subject...

Real scientific conclusions? Yes.

Consensus between flute players and scientists or just amongst flute players themselves? No.

[Gordon]

As Cathy points out, even wood types that should be identical, aren't; they come from different trees, under different circumstances, and have lived different lives (droughts, fires, long periods of humidity, etc) as they grew, so how hard, porous or naturally oily they are can vary a bit, to alot. All you can do is generalize about their qualities; boxwood is softer and more porous than blackwood or cocus, some absorb oil readily, while others, very little to not at all. Probably, the "fresher" the wood (as opposed to an antique), the worse a person's allergies will react, if they're going to react. It also seems to me that allergies are worsened by the use of certain barrier oils, which probably bring the woods' natural allergens to the surface faster, but that's just slightly educated conjecture on my part.

Any case, I hope Doc's okay...

[benhall.1]

Hmmm ... I thought I was going to come up with a really intelligent piece of insight (and please bear in mind that this comes from someone who's only had a flute, or ever tried to play one, for the past two weeks) ... Anyway, I see that Gordon's already heading this way ...

Is there a chance that it isn't the wood at all? But the type of bore oil, or other treatment, used by whoever had the flute before? I once worked temporarily in a factory which used a lot of white oil. Which is where I discovered that I am severely allergic to white oil. No other type of oil, as far as I know ... luckily ...

[Jon C.]

As Cathy points out, even wood types that should be identical, aren't; they come from different trees, under different circumstances, and have lived different lives (droughts, fires, long periods of humidity, etc) as they grew, so how hard, porous or naturally oily they are can vary a bit, to alot. All you can do is generalize about their qualities; boxwood is softer and more porous than blackwood or cocus, some absorb oil readily, while others, very little to not at all. Probably, the "fresher" the wood (as opposed to an antique), the worse a person's allergies will react, if they're going to react. It also seems to me that allergies are worsened by the use of certain barrier oils, which probably bring the woods' natural allergens to the surface faster, but that's just slightly educated conjecture on my part.

Any case, I hope Doc's okay...

Very true, the allergin is in the oil of the wood, if you oil a cocuswood or cocobolo flute, it will draw out the oil in the wood and if you are allergic to the wood, will have a reaction. The many cocuswood flutes that are over 150 years old, would not cause a alleric reaction. like the fresh stuff. If the flute is waxed instead of oiled, that should help.

[jemtheflute]

Hmmm ... I thought I was going to come up with a really intelligent piece of insight (and please bear in mind that this comes from someone who's only had a flute, or ever tried to play one, for the past two weeks) ... Anyway, I see that Gordon's already heading this way ...

Is there a chance that it isn't the wood at all? But the type of bore oil, or other treatment, used by whoever had the flute before? I once worked temporarily in a factory which used a lot of white oil. Which is where I discovered that I am severely allergic to white oil. No other type of oil, as far as I know ... luckily ...

I'm sure that various treatments applied to the surfaces of flutes and other instruments are potentially allergenic to unfortunate minorities, and if one developed a sensitivity oneself it would be sensible to include those possibilites in a process of elimination to find the actual cause. However, cocuswood has long been known to cause allergic reactions from even quite casual surface-to-skin contact in a small proportion of the already small part of the population likely to be among those who may come into contact with this very specialised-use, uncommon timber. Rockstro mentions the problem at the turn of the C19th-20th centuries, long before allergies became "fashionable" - indeed, I don't think he used the word: it was, if I recall aright, one of his arguments in favour of Ebonite, his "ideal" flute material.

I believe those who are sensitive, once sensitised, can suffer a reaction even to just touching very old flutes and regardless of those being sealed with waxes or French polish etc. I daresay newer instruments/younger timber would be worse for them, having greater residual intensity of the toxins, and I'm sure actually working with the stuff, getting its dust into one's skin and lungs would be a bigger risk - certainly of triggering a reaction if one is liable to such. (Loren????) Fortunately even among the limited population of wooden flute players, most of us do not develop such problems. I've only actually personally met a couple in a 30-odd years of activity in the field, and I've "e-met" another 4 or 5 here on C&F. Like most allergies, it's not something to worry about unless you have it! However, it is worth knowing that it is a known possibility with cocus wood and with a few of the other flute tone-woods - so if like Ben you're new to wooden flutes and you start getting a problem.......

It sounds like poor Doc is particularly susceptible!

[jim stone]

I do fine with boxwood but I once had a boxwood flute with a finish on it
that caused my lips to burn for quite some time. It was pretty nasty,
in fact. This reaction to these flutes
was widespread.. Plenty of people had it, wrote in about it,
my wife tried the flute and got it. I called the maker and told him.

[crookedtune]

So, it seems someone needs to keep bumping this until Doc delivers.

I know --- a filibuster. The Gettysburg Address, one word at a time.

Four

[dow]

Doc?

Doc?

Bueller?

Doc?

I've got an 1850's era cocus flute that gives me no problems at all (at least where allergies are concerned). Now playing well is another thing entirely, lol.

[Loren]

I know this topic has been around and around, but seriously, has anyone taken two IDENTICAL flutes by the same maker in different woods, same player, and truly noticed a difference?

Yes, I have: Olwell "Prattens" Blackwood and Cocus side by side, on more than one occasion - meaning I compared more than one blackwood olwell of the same model to the Cocus Olwell I used to own. There was definitely a difference.

What accounts for the difference? IMO (as woodwind maker) it is the combination of wood density and extremely tight grain, the latter allowing the bore to be polished to a more acoustically reflective finish than blackwood.

By the way Doc, welcome to the Cocus Allergy club. Hopefully your exposure to Cocus has not also now sensitized you to Blackwood, as it did me......


Loren

[Henke]

Ok, so we know Doc is here now. There's no getting away from this mate, you have to tell us what flute it is! There's absolutely no reason not to, everyone here knows that opinions are subjective. But I still have to know. Is it an Olwell? Hamilton?? McGee???

Tell me so I may peacefully enjoy my friday night drams of
whisky

[dow]

Bueller?

Bueller?

[Doc Jones]

My apologies. I didnt mean to be such a torment. My life has been insane of late. I built and moved into a new vet clinic lately and now everybody thinks I should take care of their dogs! Most disturbing.

Here 'tis:



It's a McGee Rudall 5088 with improved elliptical embouchure and ivoroid rings and c-nat thumbhole.

If anyone would like to count this as a commercial post I would understand...haven't had one for a few months anyway.

Best regards,

Beuller...err...Doc