This Old Flute - nach Meyer

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groxburgh
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Post by groxburgh »

david_h wrote:Ah, OK, thanks, I should have delved deeper before being tempted to re-invent the wheel. It's the programmer in me coming out. I still like the Tartini Pitch Contour a lot though.

I guess I am coming at it from a different angle than was intended. I am assuming that my modern flute is basically OK and it is my job to play it in tune. The tweakers and makers are wanting to characterise a flute and are trying not to force it into tune.

I appreciate monkey587's point. The intonation profile of my flute seems to have changed a lot over my first year - and the holes are as they always were.
Why are you assuming that a modern flute is basically OK?

(I assume you mean a modern conical simple system flute and not a Boehm - which is basically OK but still has issues).
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Graeme
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Terry McGee
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Post by Terry McGee »

Carey wrote:OK gang, here's myself doing long notes up the scale on my (edit: maker name removed) Flute. I could either set up the old flute to match this one or my "nach Tipple" pvc (see earlier chart.) Thoughts?

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/parkscarey/ ... 0690"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/parkscarey/SJiWh5N ... 0Hammy.jpg" /></a>

I'm wondering about the apparent slope in the octaves. While playing, the Syaku8 tuner indicates the A's are both sharp, but the rest of the notes looked pretty good during these recordings. Playing the wav file back from the notebook speakers to my Korg CA-30 tuners, it agrees that they look pretty good. Maybe this is why RTTA came about in the first place eh?
The "well-known maker" can be generally happy with that result, especially if it was made pre-RTTA. Most notes are very close to 0, even the problematic F#s. Even A4 isn't bad (and we don't know about A5), although it makes it the wrong note to tune to others using. You might want to get in there with a bit of wax - you won't need much!

The other thing it suggests is that it tells you your blowing is going well, so you can relax on that front.

Terry
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Terry McGee
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Post by Terry McGee »

groxburgh wrote:It seems to me that Carey has no problem with blowing in tune based on the plot of him playing his "well known makers" flute. So I don't think there's an issue with the fact he's only been playing for a few months.

The plot of Arbo playing on his "nach Meyer" is not unusual. F#s low, Cnat high, C# low, A a bit high. The biggest issue in my opinion is the D(5) being high. But as there are no D4s it's a bit hard to comment. Play some more tunes! I think with minimal effort you could get it a lot better. Check out this page http://www.business.otago.ac.nz/infosci ... eeswax.htm for an example.
Cheers
Graeme
Ah, I was going to comment on Arbo's flute too, but Graeme gets up earlier than I do. I agree with his interpretation. It would be nice to know what the low D is doing.

Terry
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ImNotIrish
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Post by ImNotIrish »

Okay guys.
Tomorrow I will record another clip, this time trying for the low 'D's'n(D4?). I still haven't downloaded tartini, so I relying on you folks to provide the graph for now. (Thanks in advance!). I read that a slower tune is better...do you agree?

Arbo
groxburgh
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Post by groxburgh »

ImNotIrish wrote:Okay guys.
Tomorrow I will record another clip, this time trying for the low 'D's'n(D4?). I still haven't downloaded tartini, so I relying on you folks to provide the graph for now. (Thanks in advance!). I read that a slower tune is better...do you agree?

Arbo
Hi Arbo
What I do is usually play several tunes at a comfortable but not flat out speed, but not slow either. Too slow and you'll be bending the notes into tune. Too fast and there will be less usable data collected. And I choose the tunes so I get a good sample of all the notes I want to look at.

The thing is when playing just 1 tune you can get some "strange" tuning things happen. As an example: if the tune has lots of jumps up to G5 then I might end up with the G5 reading high because I aim too high when jumping to it, or it could be too low if I usually aim too low. So play several tunes!
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Graeme
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phlute626
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Post by phlute626 »

Just today I tried a Nach Meyer in good condition and was wondering if it could get up to A=440.

Carey - does yours have an exterior shiny varnish? Mine does with little signs of wear and I didn't know if it was the original finish or not.

Anyone have a ballpark price I should offer? It needs a bit of work and isn't playable yet but there are no cracks and the keys are in good shape. The seller knows nothing about instruments and I want to offer a fair price but I'm new to the old flute game so am relying on y'all.

Keep up the detailed posts! I'm about to follow you down the road to 440.
groxburgh
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Re: this old flute

Post by groxburgh »

phlute626 wrote:Just today I tried a Nach Meyer in good condition and was wondering if it could get up to A=440.

Anyone have a ballpark price I should offer? It needs a bit of work and isn't playable yet but there are no cracks and the keys are in good shape. The seller knows nothing about instruments and I want to offer a fair price but I'm new to the old flute game so am relying on y'all.
There is no ballpark.
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Graeme
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Carey
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Re: this old flute

Post by Carey »

phlute626 wrote:Carey - does yours have an exterior shiny varnish? Mine does with little signs of wear and I didn't know if it was the original finish or not.
I can tell you that mine does have a shiny finish. What it might be I have no idea. I just bought the flute on e-Bay a couple weeks ago and got it for $275. All I had to do to play it was add a little teflon tape to the corks. The end of the barrel is cracked inside and doesn't seal well and needs some work. Other than that it plays pretty well. Oh, the very lowest key doesn't return open. I don't know if that's the fault of the spring or the piviot, but I'll find out if I take the keys off to enlarge the bottom of the bore.

Was that a fair price? I have no idea. But there were three or four other bidders.
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Aanvil
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Post by Aanvil »

Hell I was going to say "as cheap as you can get it"

75-100 bucks is fair I suppose... less that that sounds even more fair. ;)
Aanvil

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I am not an expert
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Post by david_h »

groxburgh wrote:Why are you assuming that a modern flute is basically OK?
I am sceptical type of person (e.g. concern over the relevance of the tails in the pitch distribution) and given that I am applying a set of lips and a brain that have only been into fluting for a year to a recently made flute from a maker who seems to carry much respect on this forum I am happy to give the flute any benefit of the doubt.

By "basically OK" I mean that there will be compromises to get the holes to where my fingers can reach them, and I have been told that "every note requires a different embouchure". So I trust the maker's compromises and will work on my embouchure.

Now when I was three months in my first octave As where really sharp and I had to consciously cover more of the embouchure hole the bring it down. But twelve months on I have a bit more focus and definitely don't have to do that, but if I slacken my lips it tends sharp again and the tone goes off. It is venting through a very small hole which may make it more sensitive to lip position. The C#s are all over the place but that because my brain can not decide to do with the seventh note in a major scale. The F#s probably tend flat because I practice a lot over a D drone. If have any consistant problems in a couple of years I will talk to the maker about him tweaking it to suite me and be happy to pay for that.

Am curious to try a Siccama though.
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phlute626
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Post by phlute626 »

Thanks for the help.
I can play open notes and a few of the keyed ones. It appears someone tried to repad it but the low c, c# and several others won't open because the pads are way too big. It might actually play OK if that were not the case.
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Carey
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Post by Carey »

Yet another preparatoty post. I've not done anything to the flute yet, still bothering about the evaluation systems. There's no point collecting data if you are not darn sure what it means.

Yesterday William Bajzek made a good point. With any instrument, and more so with a flute, the player is a very significant part of the system of making sound. It would be ideal to have the player developed to a fairly stable state before using them as a benchmark in the development or tweaking of a flute.
monkey587 wrote:[When you learn to focus your embouchure, it will make a big difference in your intonation and overall pitch. At least find someone with well established technique (5+ years) and have them try out the flute first.
I don't happen to have one handy, so I'm going to use myself. Also, I sorta want a flute that I can play out now, so if I have to tweak it again in a year, or replace it with another so be it.

That said, I thought I'd post a sample of my playing at the moment - three months in - so in two years time we can all remember what we were working with, and perhaps understand what impact my current lips may have had on the analysis. If Terry or Graeme have any ideas on what else to capture at this point in time to compare the current me with the future me I'll give it a go. As the saying goes, I'll not pass this way again, so whatever we want to capture we best capture now.

If you recall the first video was poking fun at myself getting a kick out of my unshaven countenance appearing on the monitor, and I don't think it is an acurate picture of who is testing the flute. It's been a while since I used the web cam and I'm not over it yet. So here's a better example of where I'm at at the moment, but still not quite relaxed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-7HpPZacJw

And the resulting plot:
<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/parkscarey/ ... 3154"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/parkscarey/SJmwNH5 ... 0Check.jpg" /></a>


Cheers,

Carey
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ImNotIrish
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Post by ImNotIrish »

Sorry to ask what may seem an idiotic question, but what exactly is the acceptable 'cents' range for notes?
Arbo
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Carey
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Post by Carey »

I hope the folks down under will chime in when they wake up, but to me there is no line between good and bad. (As much as the media wants to report things in a binary fashion, most topics should not be simplified to that degree.) Are you happy playing your flute? Then it's good enough. I'm not happy playing my old flute because the rest of the players stop playing if I play it because as a group it sounds bad. So I need to take some action. Were I just playing it at home by myself I probably wouldn't bother.
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Jack Bradshaw
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Post by Jack Bradshaw »

ImNotIrish wrote:Sorry to ask what may seem an idiotic question, but what exactly is the acceptable 'cents' range for notes?
As a resident idiot, my personal view is that it's any range that you can comfortably manipulate to match the frequency of whomever (or whatever) your playing with... :boggle:
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"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
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