Chiff and Fipple Forums

Hi everyone;

I’ve got the itch to order a new flute (smaller holed). I’m wondering about choice of woods. I’ve read the research regarding flute materials and it’s effect (or not) on tone, and also know that the player is probably the key ingredient. The wood lover in me is attracted however to something that looks a little more wood-like, with an obvious figured grain.

My other choices wood be cooktown ironwood, red lancewood, or gidgee - I’ve only seen pictures and read Terry McGee’s info. Anyone out there have owner’s experience with playing and maintaining a flute in these woods? Specific questions (compared to blackwood); How smooth is the finish and does it remain that way with a similar amount of care (oiling etc), is it as durable, how does it feel (to the fingers/lip), and of course, all things being equal could you tell the difference between a blackwood flute and one of the other wood with your eyes closed (feel or tone). Or are these woods poor second choices to blackwood?

Thanks in advance!

If you want a pretty flute with a nice figured grain, I'd recommend cocobolo. Its properties are very similar to blackwood -- very oily, very dense, takes a glass-like finish. I've had flutes from lancewood and Cooktown ironwood, and they didn't have a very figured grain and the finishes were far from glassy (that may be the maker as much as the wood; I dunno).

Mopane flutes can be gorgeous woodwise.


..................................

Finish your beer, there are sober kids in India.

Nah, they're all wasted on ganga.

I can vouch for Cooktown Ironwood. Beautiful wood, and mine has some flame in it. When I ordered it, I asked Terry to make if from something that would sound good, and that had an interesting grain.

Here's what he did for me:

<img src="http://flintrockdesigns.com/images/images/glp2.jpg" width="545" height="300">

He was able to make it out of a single piece of wood, so the grain runs the same for the entire length of the flute.

It takes oil well, but seems to be somewhat indifferent to how often or how much. I oiled it a lot when I first got it, and now I may oil it twice a year or so.

I really like the way it sounds, butn the sound has much more to do with the player than it does with any type of wood.

HTH,

Dow

P. S. It's darker now than it was when this picture was taken, about two years ago when it was new. The flame and grain is still very prominent.

I confess the features of wood that matter to me
are just about entirely functional--acoustic properties,
ease of care, weight. Wood will always look like....wood.
For me the beauty of the instrument is principally
it's functionality. I really like blackwood.

But you know, whatever floats your boat.

chas wrote:If you want a pretty flute with a nice figured grain, I'd recommend cocobolo. Its properties are very similar to blackwood -- very oily, very dense, takes a glass-like finish. I've had flutes from lancewood and Cooktown ironwood, and they didn't have a very figured grain and the finishes were far from glassy (that may be the maker as much as the wood; I dunno).

I would shy away from Cocobolo, the wood is perfect for flutes, but highly toxic. I don't think many makers will make a flute from the stuff, at least for very long! When you wake up and look like you lost a prize fight, puffy eyes and swollen lips... Blackwood, Madagascar Rosewood, and Mopane, are the woods I like the most.

Jon C. wrote:

chas wrote:If you want a pretty flute with a nice figured grain, I'd recommend cocobolo. Its properties are very similar to blackwood -- very oily, very dense, takes a glass-like finish. I've had flutes from lancewood and Cooktown ironwood, and they didn't have a very figured grain and the finishes were far from glassy (that may be the maker as much as the wood; I dunno).

I would shy away from Cocobolo, the wood is perfect for flutes, but highly toxic. I don't think many makers will make a flute from the stuff, at least for very long! When you wake up and look like you lost a prize fight, puffy eyes and swollen lips... Blackwood, Madagascar Rosewood, and Mopane, are the woods I like the most.

Well, I've gotten coco flutes from two makers; neither has complained. I'm a pretty allergic guy and I haven't had any problems either playing the flutes or turning the wood.

Is there any evidence that cocobolo is more allergenic than any of the other rosewoods?

chas wrote:

Jon C. wrote:

chas wrote:If you want a pretty flute with a nice figured grain, I'd recommend cocobolo. Its properties are very similar to blackwood -- very oily, very dense, takes a glass-like finish. I've had flutes from lancewood and Cooktown ironwood, and they didn't have a very figured grain and the finishes were far from glassy (that may be the maker as much as the wood; I dunno).

I would shy away from Cocobolo, the wood is perfect for flutes, but highly toxic. I don't think many makers will make a flute from the stuff, at least for very long! When you wake up and look like you lost a prize fight, puffy eyes and swollen lips... Blackwood, Madagascar Rosewood, and Mopane, are the woods I like the most.

Well, I've gotten coco flutes from two makers; neither has complained. I'm a pretty allergic guy and I haven't had any problems either playing the flutes or turning the wood.

Is there any evidence that cocobolo is more allergenic than any of the other rosewoods?

Actually there is Charlie (although some may find it shocking that Jon and I sometimes agree ) : A number of instrument makers and other woodworkers have had more severe reactions to Cocobolo than any other wood they've worked with. A number of instrument makers, including well known custom guitar maker Kathy Wingert, simply refuse to work with the wood any more having had bad reactions to the wood/dust during construction.

On the player's side, Cocobolo is right up there with Cocus as far as causing reactions. But of course some folks can play Cocobolo and/or Cocus instruments with impunity. OTH, if you're one of the unfortunate folks who react to the wood, you risk becoming sensitized for life to many different woods, including Grenadilla, at which point flute buying becomes a real bitch.

So, at the very least, one should understand this in order to make an informed decision when purchasing a Cocobolo flute - It's a bit like rolling the dice in Vegas, and you've lucked out Charlie


Loren

Delrin!!
No maintenance, no allergic reactions, no cracking, similar sound (as similar as Granadilla sounds like Cocus or Mopane), feeling (to me) is as good as wood. I've played an African Blackwood flute from a top notch maker which felt less alive than my two Delrin flutes.
Delrin is the new Blackwood

But I know this post is redundant since you're a wood lover. I am too, I just don't need it in my flutes, not in the past or in the present anyway. Maybe in the future if I find any reason why it would be worth it, but frankly I doubt it.

Loren wrote:

chas wrote: Well, I've gotten coco flutes from two makers; neither has complained. I'm a pretty allergic guy and I haven't had any problems either playing the flutes or turning the wood.

Is there any evidence that cocobolo is more allergenic than any of the other rosewoods?

Actually there is Charlie (although some may find it shocking that Jon and I sometimes agree ) : A number of instrument makers and other woodworkers have had more severe reactions to Cocobolo than any other wood they've worked with. A number of instrument makers, including well known custom guitar maker Kathy Wingert, simply refuse to work with the wood any more having had bad reactions to the wood/dust during construction.

On the player's side, Cocobolo is right up there with Cocus as far as causing reactions. But of course some folks can play Cocobolo and/or Cocus instruments with impunity. OTH, if you're one of the unfortunate folks who react to the wood, you risk becoming sensitized for life to many different woods, including Grenadilla, at which point flute buying becomes a real bitch.

So, at the very least, one should understand this in order to make an informed decision when purchasing a Cocobolo flute - It's a bit like rolling the dice in Vegas, and you've lucked out Charlie

Thanks for the info, Loren and Jon. And the way I'd put it is that I've lucked out SO FAR. I've had some odd chapping around the lower lip recently, but I've only been playing boxwood flutes. I'm beginning to suspect the finish, but the chapping seems to have disappeared. It also may be eczema, which I had around my mouth as a baby, but it is only where my mouth contacts the flute.

I think I'm gonna stay away from coco in the shop now. Right now I've got mostly dogwood, Cambodian rosewood, and boxwood aging. Hopefully the rosewood won't spank me.

In the long run, different makes (by different makers) and their various models will matter as much or more than the wood selection, assuming the flute is made from a well-seasoned, acceptable, quality hardwood. If you've already picked a maker and a style flute, then I'd talk to the maker about which woods they work in, and what might be a wise choice for you. All the different woods sound, smell and feel differently, too, which are other factors beyond the visual, some subtle, some not.

Aesthetics are personal; if that's your top priority, just check out what different wood you prefer. Blackwood looks dignified, to me, and very much like wood; Delrin only looks like blackwood from a few feet away, and feels nothing like it in your hands. Grain like you'd see on an expensive guitar often doesn't look good on flutes (IMO) - they end up looking like elaborate chair legs. The grain takes away from the line, and from the silver rings, etc. But that's just me, which is why I say aesthetics are personal.

They're all the same!

I haven't posted in months, but since I happened to look today and saw that Gordon responded to this thread, I think I have to as well.

Red lancewood is the bomb. Beautiful timber with the accoustic properties of cocus but less care. If you look through the flute pics page, you'll see a flute of mine made out of red lancewood (a Grinter).

Mike Grinter claims the timber requires more care than blackwood, but I would have to say that (at least in my climate) it seems just as hardy.

Cocobolo is a nice timber that's available in a whole bunch of colors but there are too many reports of its allergenicity for it to be a real contender. I know that mopane has been popular, but I also recall reading (maybe someone else knows more about this) in the past few years that it's actually getting to be more scarce than blackwood. That could mean that good mopane is harder to get than good blackwood, but I don't know. Personally, I was never impressed with mopane, appearance or otherwise . . .

But when it comes down to it, get what you like the looks and feel of. Timber selection is psychoacoustically critical but probably veritas-acoustically minimal.

Stuart

sturob wrote:But when it comes down to it, get what you like the looks and feel of. Timber selection is psychoacoustically critical but probably veritas-acoustically minimal.

To parrot what I've read here and there, since the wood hardly vibrates at all (in contrast to the soundboard of a fiddle), it would seem acoustically irrelevant. However the bore's final polish and porosity do seem to play role. Oddly enough, it's not clear if a perfectly mirror finish is most desirable.

That's why I said minimal. I agree with you completely. It's why flutes sound the way they do after they're oiled: you smooth out the bore. Other things (like the embouchure) have a much larger role in how a flute sounds. And by that, I mean the player's more than the cut of the instrument's.

As to what's best, I have no idea.

Stuart