Kevin Crawford's BCd Ornament

[bang]

I'd like to hear a snappy, poppy example of the Bcd triplet with a C# from someone. Michael

Michael, check out your man KC himself in this YouTube clip I linked earlier for the Bc#d run...

hmmm. as i listen to a slowed down version of that it seems Crawford is mostly doing c#-c#-d triplets at the beginnings of the B part, with a tap between the c#s. once he does a B-c?-d triplet, but i think he is using a Cnat.

am i missing B-c#-d triplets somewhere Jem? seems to me like Crawford is finding ways to play percussive triplets instead of the more legato B-c#-d option.

enjoy! /dan

ps- Kevin Crawford is amazing!

[bang]

Bang, I can only say to that that I cannot see any fingering that looks like c#-tap-c#-d in the runs in question

EDIT - this was a response to a now vanished post....... :-?

sorry about the confusion. after posting i went back and watched the clip and thought for a bit that i had got it wrong. but re-listening to the slowed down bits i remain convinced he is using c#-tap-c#-d. here is a slowed down clip:

http://www.pacificsites.com/~dog/tmp/ccd.5.wav

i'm not sure that the frame rate in youtube vids is fast enough to see this sort of thing.

enjoy! /dan

[jemtheflute]

here is a slowed down clip:
http://www.pacificsites.com/~dog/tmp/ccd.5.wav
dan

Thanks! I've listened to the slowed down clip 7 or 8 times with close attention, Dan/Bang, and I hear A-tapG-A-B-c(?naturallish)-d with a kind of blip between the B and the c-whatever that is precisely the kind of register-break/finger slap pop I've been on about. The B seems quite clearly present to me, within the time structure of the triplet run, and I do not hear any break within or reiteration of the c, just a sound that separates the B and c.

I've had a go at doing some sound samples of my own. They're all on one clip. Firstly I had a few shots at the bit from the end of the J.S. Bach Badinerie I mentioned up-thread to try to show what I mean about the three semiquaver runs almost sounding articulated although they're not when one gets the fingering just right (I don't consistently!), especially the final up-scale run. Then I noodled about with the triplet run that is the core of this thread out of context - doing some with oxx ooo c naturals, then some with oxo xxx c naturals, then some with c#s (there may be some odds and ends before I settled into the progression). I think I managed to get all three versions to pop at least some of the time, when I did it well enough. The one with the oxx ooo c nat gives a few very pronounced pops because my fingering is less clean with that as it is less familiar/not my normal c nat, but the fact it does so gives some support to things Rob Sharer and others have said up-thread. Finally, I had a go at Green Fields of Rosbeigh (I have a slightly different setting of it.....), and apart from demonstrating other assorted deficiencies in my playing, I think I manage to get at least some of the B part triplets to pop convincingly, if (unsurprisingly) less so than our exalted exemplar! I used open c# throughout and no extraneous gracings, though at least some of the time I was very lightly soft-tonguing the B at the start of the run.

[bang]

here is a slowed down clip:
http://www.pacificsites.com/~dog/tmp/ccd.5.wav
dan

Thanks! I've listened to the slowed down clip 7 or 8 times with close attention, Dan/Bang, and I hear A-tapG-A-B-c(?naturallish)-d with a kind of blip between the B and the c-whatever that is precisely the kind of register-break/finger slap pop I've been on about. The B seems quite clearly present to me, within the time structure of the triplet run, and I do not hear any break within or reiteration of the c, just a sound that separates the B and c.

interesting that we here things differently. just for yucks, here are all the triplets at the start of the b parts, full speed and half (.5) speed. i don't hear any B's in the triplets, except for the 4th time, where i hear a B-cnat-d. am i tone deaf??? :^) i'd be glad if a few more ears checked this out:

http://www.pacificsites.com/~dog/tmp/kc-bbc-12x.mp3
http://www.pacificsites.com/~dog/tmp/kc-bbc-12x.5.mp3

I've had a go at doing some sound samples of my own.

listening to your B-c#-d triplets Jem, i hear a strong pulse on the B which gives it good definition and separation from the softer following c#. this is quite nice, but not what i hear Crawford doing.

enjoy! /dan

ps- i bet Kevin would be amused at all this bruhaha. :^)

[jemtheflute]

i bet Kevin would be amused at all this bruhaha. :^)

I reckon! Though it does have a serious point to it - I for one would like to be reliably able to emulate the full effect, as presumably would our OP-er, George.

I've listened to your new slow sequence. It's a little confusing having them all run together without clear breaks, but from what I can make out I agree that most of them do seem to have the broken c and not a B at the start of the triplet. I've tried to work out how to finger that, keep the triplet rhythm and end in the right place but it's eluding me....... so I'm not really any the wiser.... and it still doesn't seem to tie in with what I can see of his fingering on the video. Can anyone do a usable slow-down on that?

As it is precisely the sort of thing I'm sure he would teach on request at a workshop, I say again, can anyone following this thread who has a chance to ask him in the not too distant do so on our behalf?

[bradhurley]

As it is precisely the sort of thing I'm sure he would teach on request at a workshop, I say again, can anyone following this thread who has a chance to ask him in the not too distant do so on our behalf?

I wouldn't count on it. Now that Kevin's done quite a bit of teaching he probably has a better idea of what he's doing, but in general I think he has a hard time dissecting what he does because it's unconscious and he's been doing it so long. I took a workshop with him about 10 years ago and when people started asking him questions about technique he just shrugged his shoulders and said "don't ask me, I have no idea how I do that."

A friend of mine took a class once with the fiddler Tommy Peoples and asked him to explain his famous "stutter roll." Tommy did his best. But watching him, my friend observed that part of the effect was achieved by a flick with the little finger on his bow hand, and he asked Tommy about it. "I'm not flicking my finger," Tommy replied.

Kevin might be able to explain how he's getting those crisp triplets, but I wouldn't count on it

[George]

I think this is it!

http://www.box.net/shared/2byedr34kw

-George

[jemtheflute]

I think this is it!

http://www.box.net/shared/2byedr34kw

-George

Nice enough playing, George, but I don't hear much popping in those over-the-break triplets, let alone KCs staccato effect. I know my efforts were nowhere up to KC standards either, mind.

[George]

Jem, you understand that I'm not asking about a backstitch? There's no big pop, or staccato in the embellishment. Which topic did you think you've been posting to?
Do you not hear it? Fluttery, almost like it's tongued. You can hear that it's not just a BCd? I'm just getting it under my fingers, so thanks for the "nice enough playing" comment, it's a start if nothing else =).

-George

[jemtheflute]

I never have thought it was any kind of "back stitch", George, as my earlier posts should make clear, nor do I think there is any tonguing or glottaling involved, and the popping I referred to is how I hear the effect from KC, a very clean, as you say "fluttery" break from note to note. I'm open to be convinced otherwise, but both from looking at and listening to the KC vids I do not think he is making any extra notes/cuts/taps or whatever, nor using any mouth articulation.... it's just very snappy fingering - and like you I tried, not sufficiently successfully, to demonstrate that in my clip. But short of word from the man himself, I don't think we're going to get any further here.......

[bang]

I think this is it!

http://www.box.net/shared/2byedr34kw

-George

so, what are you doing here?

enjoy! /dan

[Guinness]

I'll bet if you play it backwards, you'll hear allusions to devil worship.

[jemtheflute]

devil worship.

Not a snowball's chance in hell of successful supplication, then. Still that's better odds than on a response from any putative "upstairs"!

[Rob Sharer]

Got to go with Jem on this one - doesn't soundlike what Crawford's doing, anyway. Nice enough in its own way, but not what the rest of us were talking about. Cheers,

Rob

[johnnyalpha]

I think this is it!

http://www.box.net/shared/2byedr34kw

-George

Apologies for resurrecting a long dead thread, but when george posted an answer in a clip at the end there, and now the link is broken, I was left in suspense. Can anyone remember or shed light on this? My question is essentially the same as the OP's but I'm unable to check many of the links. And maybe there is new knowledge since the conversation ended?