Kevin Crawford's BCd Ornament

[jemtheflute]

I haven't had a chance to look at the KC clip in question (will in the next day or so), but following this interesting thread and agreeing with much of what has been said thus far, I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the fact that, on an open-holed instrument, good, clean, accurate fingering in very fast sequences can produce a popping effect almost like tonguing, even if one doesn't have the best embouchure in the world, and is accentuated by good embouchure focus and breath support. (Is this part of what the whistle people mysteriously seem to mean by "chiff"?). That would account for the comment that KC gets the effect on whistle too. I've long thought that this is absolutely one of the fundamental reasons why ITM works better on open-holed flutes than on Boehm.

Digressing genre-wise for an example, I have noticed that if one plays something like the Bach B minor suite Badinerie on Boehm flute, the very fast runs at the end of the B section have to be double-tongued. They may well be intended to be double-tongued with correct Baroque technique also, but when I play it on my R&R 8-key I can play them legato in terms of tongued articulation but they pop quite nicely as if lightly staccato - the open holes and crisp fingering produce/allow that where Boehm platter keys or flabby fingering would not.

I've been going through my tune collections looking for triplet runs in reels "over the break" with both Cnat and C# (and yes, often in 1# tunes one would play with a C# not withstanding the key signature, but very often also one may maintain the mode, or mix between the two for effect.....) and just hacking through the tunes - it depends a bit on context, but I think that where that leads one into such a triplet crisply they do indeed pop under the fingers whether the C is # or nat, and without any tongued or other articulation or extra gracings. I'm not saying one can't add such for more/different effect, of course, but I suspect that just doing them cleanly, (and similar effects can be observed in other contexts, though across the break does seem to accentuate it) is all that is going on.

FWIW, when I do C nat ones, I use my normal C nat fingering, so the sequence is
B=xoo ooo,
Cnat = oxo xxx,
D=oxx xxx
and they come out just fine.

[bang]

i agree that with a good focused blow and snappy fingering it is possible to realize a crisp B-c# transition. but it seems to me that without some sort of articulation it will necessarily be legato. what i hear in Crawford's Bcd triplets is a distinct break between the B and c notes. (you can also see in the recording that there is a definite drop in volume between those notes.)

so, is there any way to get a non-legato B-c# transition in a triplet at full speed?

enjoy! /dan

[Rob Sharer]

You could flutter-tongue it, but I don't think KC is doing that. The more I try to replicate the sound he's getting there, the more it seems to me like he's just playing a C natural, and letting his blow do the work. You really can get a cut-up, distinctly articulated ornament this way.

Just try playing those three notes every way you can think of, hundreds of times, and see what ends up doing the job for you. Cheers,

Rob

[daiv]

it's a toughy. come to think of it, i remember several flutes popping c natural when i played them, but as i was playing, i dont know how it sounded when i play. i never use the oxx-ooo fingering myself on my flute, but i do recall it popping. the only time i ever use that fingering s when i'm playing mike rafferty's version of i have a bonnet trimmed with blue.

[Rob Sharer]

You made a good point in there, Daiv. It's not just a C natural but Cnat with the oxx ooo fingering that makes the most articulate "pop." Cheers,

Rob

[boyd]

I play uilleann pipes, flute and whistles.

On all three instruments the Bcd triplet contains a c# {B c# d}

Its just easier that way.
And in fast tunes, the c is so short in a triplet that whether its sharp or natural is of no consequence.

So...Michael C is correct


Boyd

[Rob Sharer]

There you go...the Paddies can't agree on anything, as usual!

Interestingly enough, C# gets used in that ornament quite a bit on the fiddle as well, regardless of the key. My original contention was that C# is an easier grab on the flute, and I still would tend to go with this and agree with Boyd about the note's short duration making it inconsequential. Still, the more I play around with trying to get the sound KC gets on Col. Frasier's, the more I find C natural to be the ticket, which is what Michael C was getting at.

Still, if there's a grace note in there, it's so short as to be almost imperceptible. I think it's more like this, that putting the G fingering down briefly sort of shears off the end of the B note cleanly (I'm remembering when I was learning the whistle; I worked really hard to lose that sound when going between B and C). Whatever KC is doing on the ornament in question, it comes off as sounding very clean and subtle, not frilly and fancy. The solidity of his blow keeps it sounding like a steak dinner, not a chiffon dessert. Cheers,

Rob

[jemtheflute]

I've had a look at the original KC clip quoted now, and I think that Rob and I have the right of it between us - solid embouchure focus/firm breath/tone support allied to very clean, crisp fingering is all that is going on, and he's definitely playing C naturals in the triplets in question. Lovely rendition of a cracking tune too, and oh that Bb Grinter!

I also saw a link to this video of his - Green Fields of Rosbeigh - a tune I know and play myself which also has prominent B c#d triplet runs in it - have a look at it - on D flute this time, and they pop even more - in fact there are a couple of times when I do think he may be adding some triple tonguing or glotalling as a variation, though I can't be certain - he certainly is only fingering it the majority of times it comes around. No sign of any extra gracing I can make out in either video, though, either visually or aurally.

I disagree there is anything "harder" on flute or whistle about using the Cnat rather than C# (can't speak for pipes) in such runs, whichever is one's preferred fingering - I use oxo xxx on flute, oxx xox on most whistles and oxx ooo on my piccolo and none of them is in any way hard to fit in in quick passages). I think sometimes it is clearly preferable from a listening point of view to maintain the mode, but there are other contexts where the contrast of using the note that isn't in the mode is effective, or alternation between them as a variation is good. There are also a good many tunes where it seems to be traditional (according to the collected notations such as O'Neill and Breathnach) to use a C# in the run when the mode has a natural........ but others where it isn't, pace Boyd, Brad, Michael C et al.

I think these triplets pop just as well whichever C one is using and however one fingers C naturals if choosing to do so - it's not the specific fingering that produces the effect, but the precise co-ordination of whatever finger movements one is making.

P.S. Just checked out the OP link to Clodagh Holland - wow! what lovely, controlled whistling. Fantastic.

[George]

Great to have so many people contributing. But, I feel the question of what's happening has gotten lost.

Whether you're always supposed use a C# is separate topic. There are plenty of examples of a natural C when a tune or an embellishment calls for it.

It's not a matter of "blow", he's doing something distinct with his fingers.

The one post from Dow might have the best clue in it. He said to slide up from a 'B' on your way to a 'd'. I don't hear the slide itself, but maybe where it would end up.

coo ooo - Half holed C

cxx ooo - Half holed G tap
oxx ooo - Cross-fingered C

oxx xxx - Vented middle d

So it would be a CCd. Like what Michael mentioned, what I know as a backstitch, but with the index finger cracked off the hole at the start.

-George

[Rob Sharer]

Well, George, if you know already, then why did you ask?

[daiv]

Well, George, if you know already, then why did you ask?

i just listened to your clip--i enjoyed it very much!

[jemtheflute]

It's not a matter of "blow", he's doing something distinct with his fingers.

I really cannot see or hear KC doing anything "extra" in the passages in question. I don't have the benefit of any slow-down technology/software (nor really interested in getting it, before anyone recommends such!), but I honestly think he is just doing the basic thing without any tricks. I don't pretend to be remotely in KC's class, but I do think I can achieve a similar effect myself as discussed above, with either Cnat or C# in the triplet - and in other contexts of very rapid fingering. Better tone production and support than I have, such as KCs, just makes it stronger, but it is essentially in the finger co-ordination, possibly accentuated where going over the break, as the working part of the air column kinda snaps to a significantly different length (not trying to be properly scientific here, but to offer a way of loosely conceptualising what may be happening - I'll leave a better explanantion to the proper acoustic physicists here.....), perhaps producing its own little sonic resonance in doing so? Resonance imparted to the air-column by percussive finger landings on the tone-holes may also be a part of what is heard.

I think that, short of conclusive slow-down verification of KC's fingerings or of directly asking him what he does in such contexts, this thread will become more and more a wild goose chase. Have you tried playing these triplets straight but very crisp yourself, George, and can you not hear the pops at least sometimes?

FWIW, I find Dow's suggestion virtually undoable at any usable speed, let alone KC's, and I don't think it begins to approach the popping effect, on the contrary, it precludes it!

[mahanpots]

Except that as a general rule, all B-c-d triplets are played with a c#, regardless of the key you're in. That c# goes by so fast it doesn't matter that it's not in the key of the tune. I've never heard anyone use a c natural in these triplets, not to say that it can't be done but really there's no reason to do it.

The reason for doing it is so you can do the cool snappy triplet. The secret, as Michael C says, is a tiny G gracing between the B and C. A very easy way to do this is to start by playing the B with the fingering

xox ooo

Switch your top two fingers for the C, but do it lazily enough that all three fingers are on the flute for a microsecond. Then play the D.

Here's a recording of me doing it slowly, then fast. And quietly, because it's just after 7 am here.

Great example, Ro3b. That sounds like what I do, although I've never tried to slow it down like that. Well done. I'd like to hear a snappy, poppy example of the Bcd triplet with a C# from someone.

Michael

[jemtheflute]

I'd like to hear a snappy, poppy example of the Bcd triplet with a C# from someone. Michael

Michael, check out your man KC himself in this YouTube clip I linked earlier for the Bc#d run.... same tune as Ro3b chose - actually, I think he may have learned KC's setting?

They don't come much poppier!

I just watched it again, BTW, and it looks to me (again without slow-down) that maybe, just maybe, (I'm really not certain) KC is putting L2 down in the run rather than playing a fully open C# - which will produce a rather sharp C nat/flat C# similar to the ambiguous one on pipes...... I don't think it makes much difference to how poppy it is, though, and it is hard to tell at speed - he may be playing an open C#. Anyone going to that forthcoming workshop can ask on behalf of us all?

[jemtheflute]

Bang, I can only say to that that I cannot see any fingering that looks like c#-tap-c#-d in the runs in question - nor do I think they sound that way - I'm pretty sure they all start on the B, both visually and aurally. I don't think we're going to settle this through simple observation, though - there's not enough clarity visually for that and without visual clarity on a sequence of fingerings, or verbal confirmation from KC directly, I don't think listening at any speed or even RTTA analysis is going to "prove" what he does.

EDIT - this was a response to a now vanished post.......