Trying to find myself...

[cocusflute]

I accept both daiv's and rob's points. stone is as ever pedantically verbose and in need of an editor. I might read his posts through if they were more succinct.

I do not think that the desire to develop one's own style is a part of the tradition. Sean nos is a thing apart from what we do. The name alone characterizes it as a solo expression.

What motivates me after forty years of ITM isn't a desire to develop my own style but rather to play the tune right. I will of course do certain things with a tune - phrasing, breathing, ornaments - that other people don't do. But basically my playing has been formed by years of listening to great musicians and trying to do what they do. Sometimes I might do something, a variation or an ornament, that seems to to come out of nowhere. But it really comes out of my immersion in the music. My own style might develop but that's an accident of temperament and geography, not from a conscious desire to put my own stamp on the tune.

A great old puffer (Gerald O'Loughlin) from St. Brigid's Holy Well, outside Liscannor on the Coast Road, below The Cliffs, who's been at this for seventy years, said that he tries as much as possible to play like Micho Russell. Micho's style is unique and lovely. Music stripped bare. Simple, beautiful music. It's very difficult to copy, to be so restrained and to have so much lift. Micho explained apologetically for having played a tune like a concertina player (like his brother, Packie) rather than like a traditional whistle player: "I play this more of a sort of a concertina style than as a whistle player."

Micho, the great individual performer, saw himself as being solidly rooted in an ageless tradition. I wonder, if asked about his own style, if he'd know what you were talking about.

Now I am verbose! My apologies.

[boyd]

Can I step in as a humble Irishman and say that "traditional" is NOT sitting in pubs with 20 other musicians all playing the same denatured tune in unison.

Tradition is in fact in a kitchen in a wee mucky corner of Ireland with one or two players, quite often playing solo.
And the unique voice of each musicians playing IS therefore of importance.
Look at some of the celebrated archive recordings of Donegal fiddle music. What about the tapes that gave rise to The Northern Fiddler classic book.
Look at the sean-nos tradition and the recordings made.
What about the work of Seamus Ennis back in the 30's.
Look at harp playing and uilleann piping in the 1700's and 1800's.

Solo tradition. The purest of stuff.

Now there's nothing wrong with all playing together, its very nice, grew out of the 1950's and 60's.
Its not any older than that, and it was an English phenomenon, (Irish people living abroad in England).

A good musician will play with others, no problems. But when it comes to playing solo, a really good trad musician will have his or her own unique sound.
And I would encourage that kind of development in any of you that are reading this.
Get the basics (only takes 15 years or whatever) then try and get your own style and sound.

There you are....thats not just what I think...I know a few top notch geezers, whose CDs may be owned by you, who would make these points too

Have fun with it

Boyd

[Cayden]

I do not think that the desire to develop one's own style is a part of the tradition

Yet having one is most highly valued within the tradition.

I would also say Boyd is spot on when saying the tradition is not the pub based gang bang some people have made of it. It's the spirit of the solo player and his/her individuality that epitomises it and is most highly valued by all great traditional musicians I have ever met and known.

As for Micho, when he said he was more like a concertina player it's unlikely he was thinking of Packie at all. He often said he couldn't play like his brothers and listening to the three of them makes this all the more obvious. He was probably thinking of their mother or more likely even of their neighbour Patrick Flanagan of Doonagore.

[cocusflute]

I agree with everybody.
Do you all think that one should try to develop one's own style? Or that it is something that develops on its own?
What I said about Micho's playing as being more like a concertina player -- he only meant with regard to the one tune that he was commenting on at the time, not to his playing in general.

[Cayden]

Micho said that more often and in more general terms as well.

Style evolves, the sum of your life's and musical experiences, it would be contrived if it was any other way.

[jemtheflute]

Style evolves, the sum of your life's and musical experiences, it would be contrived if it was any other way.

Hear hear.

One might add that that is inevitable, save for the deliberate and artificial mimicry of something particular. If one listens listens and then plays plays, absorbing what one has heard, copying or imitating up to a point but not trying to mimic or pastiche, then the sum of all the disparate influences one has acquired will come out as one's personal expression, a style if you will. Whether or not that fits within any observer's genre/regional pigeonholes and whether it is "authentic" to anything is another matter, as is whether or not it is "good" or "works" for a listener. We all do this willy-nilly at whatever level of proficiency we are operating.

Arbo, the OP, indubitably has a distinctive personal style, and he has developed it in the months that he has been a principle participant in the clips thread. I don't really agree with his premise about seeking a personal style, though. One may seek to improve technically and to vary and broaden ones range of expression to play, perhaps, in different styles in terms of those regional pigeonholes etc. There are elements of choice in one's general approach, of course, and in how one may tackle an individual piece of music, but I think few of us would do other than seek to play to the best of our technical ability (and always to improve that) with the best artistic interpretation of the material we can offer according to our own taste. That comprises our "personal style" - a summation of where we are now reflecting how we got here, rather than a deliberate construct for it's own sake.

[ImNotIrish]

Thanks all,
for you thoughts and musings. It may indeed have been 'a silly thread,'
but it was definitely a fun read.

Arbo

[talasiga]

Can I step in as a humble Irishman and say that "traditional" is NOT sitting in pubs with 20 other musicians all playing the same denatured tune in unison.

Tradition is in fact in a kitchen in a wee mucky corner of Ireland with one or two players, quite often playing solo.
And the unique voice of each musicians playing IS therefore of importance.
Look at some of the celebrated archive recordings of Donegal fiddle music. What about the tapes that gave rise to The Northern Fiddler classic book.
Look at the sean-nos tradition and the recordings made.
What about the work of Seamus Ennis back in the 30's.
Look at harp playing and uilleann piping in the 1700's and 1800's.

Solo tradition. The purest of stuff.

Now there's nothing wrong with all playing together, its very nice, grew out of the 1950's and 60's.
Its not any older than that, and it was an English phenomenon, (Irish people living abroad in England).

A good musician will play with others, no problems. But when it comes to playing solo, a really good trad musician will have his or her own unique sound.
And I would encourage that kind of development in any of you that are reading this.
Get the basics (only takes 15 years or whatever) then try and get your own style and sound.

There you are....thats not just what I think...I know a few top notch geezers, whose CDs may be owned by you, who would make these points too

Have fun with it

Boyd

I love humble Irish posts like this.
They actually beam.

[daiv]

I agree with everybody.
Do you all think that one should try to develop one's own style? Or that it is something that develops on its own?
What I said about Micho's playing as being more like a concertina player -- he only meant with regard to the one tune that he was commenting on at the time, not to his playing in general.

i do not think you should develop your own style. it should happen naturally. when people try too hard, they end up with something funky.

however, the best way to find the tradition is to find yourself. all the best players put themselves totally into the music--it is all the listen to, it is all they play, and it is all they think about. what is more, when they play, they put their all into the music--all their feeling, all their effort--to preserve and uphold and respect the tradition. respect for others cannot be found without yourself. style is just a side affect.

Tradition is in fact in a kitchen in a wee mucky corner of Ireland with one or two players, quite often playing solo.

you hit it spot on--that's what i was trying to say when i said the tradition is not about playing in pubs.

[Gordon]

"]Tradition is in fact in a kitchen in a wee mucky corner of Ireland with one or two players, quite often playing solo.

you hit it spot on--that's what i was trying to say when i said the tradition is not about playing in pubs.

The tradition is about playing, period; solo, in a kitchen, or in a pub. The concern here, though, was about steady, rhythmic phrasing. Even solo, traditional playing has a defined and steady rhythm; unique personality quirks still need to adhere to this, and shouldn't be a calculated concern in any case.

Back when I studied with Jack Coen, he'd throw a few tunes down for me each week onto a cassette - a solo performance, once or twice 'round, with little embellishment, so I'd get it learned. I was always amazed that I could take these recordings home and play along with them on guitar, every tune and every phrase locked in as if he'd been accompanied with a rhythm player all along. This is what I still work on more than anything else, keeping the lift, phrasing, drive of a tune locked and solid, whether playing solo or in a pub (or kitchen).

[Cubitt]

I think the interesting thing about a personal style is that the person who possesses it doesn't always know it exists or can actually define it. Have you ever read an interview of a musician or songwriter only to find out that their personal favorites of their own repertoire is at odds with what they are best known and loved for?

The nicest compliment I've ever received came from the member of a trad band who, as he was leaving our small session to play on stage, leaned over to me and whispered, "You lend a touch of grace to every instrument you play." (He had heard me play whistle, bodhran, bones, and flute.) I thought the compliment too specifically worded to be gratuitous, but I would give worlds to know what he heard that made him phrase his compliment in just that way.

Do I have a personal style? Damned if I know.

[G1]

Style evolves, the sum of your life's and musical experiences, it would be contrived if it was any other way.

That is precisely how it happens. It comes from doing the work and pushing your limits - not out of a desire to get the work done; but out of love for the work itself. Not money or prestige... ya' gotta love it for its own sake.

I'll likely never have that with the Irish flute (although flute is my spiritual muse); but a lifetime of guitar playing and singing has made its stylistic mark upon me and the music I produce.