Chiff and Fipple Forums

EDIT - I've changed the title of this thread (originally "Interlocking C#/C foot keys - which makers?) but want to keep it intact and follow through on the flute I started it for - see below........

I did a quick forum search, but didn't have any easy hits, so, can anyone point me to any old threads/posts/pictures on this topic? And apart from that, can anyone (Terry, David Migoya, Jon C et al.) tell me what original C19th makers they are aware of that used that "crow's foot" style of interlocked foot-key touches. Obviously Rudall & Rose did, but do we know of anyone else? Thanks for any help.

A search for 'the claw' should answer your questions.

I've just read the post about the "claw". http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=41316

I guess my Monzani may be of some interest as it has the "claw". Serial number is 2450 which is earlier than the one mentioned in the previous thread: "and then there is always the possibility that Hill/Monzani #3081 (c.1830) was the original"

However mine is also stamped Hill late Monzani on the same section as the serial number, and the keys are hallmarked with both HH for Henry Hill, and "r" for 1832. This is in contrast #3049 with hallmark "p" for 1830 also by Hill seen here: http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/monzani.htm which also has the "claw". Mine has the "downwards facing tenons, and the pretty swiveling cups" mentioned by Terry, and low C sounds strongly. If you need photos let me know.

Cheers
Graeme

Thanks guys - the "Claw" thread is certainly helpful, if frustrating due to loss of images. So far, then, we have Monzani/Hill, Prowse, R&R and possibly Wylde. Any more for any more? I'm not at this point trying to date their introduction or anything technical like that, just wondering if one could attribute an otherwise anonymous flute to a small range of makers from the presence of a claw-interlocked C/C# arrangement. (Yes, this is a practically pertinent issue - I'm awaiting delivery of such a flute, described as having no marks - though it may yet prove to have some stamps on it once I get to clean it up........)

It's also frustrating that David's R&R catalogue site seems to be even more dismantled at present - how's the work progressing David?

To add to the confusion, there were most certainly "key men" who did work for multiple makers. Wylde himself, I believe, gussied up sticks turned by various "timber dudes."

Let me know if the jargon gets too thick for you...

Rob

jemtheflute wrote:I did a quick forum search, but didn't have any easy hits, so, can anyone point me to any old threads/posts/pictures on this topic? And apart from that, can anyone (Terry, David Migoya, Jon C et al.) tell me what original C19th makers they are aware of that used that "crow's foot" style of interlocked foot-key touches. Obviously Rudall & Rose did, but do we know of anyone else? Thanks for any help.

From the looks of your new eBay flute (I didn't bid against you ) I was thinking that it may actually be a American flute, namely Firth, Hall and Pond. I used to have a 8 key FH&P with the same interlocking keywork. Also, the seller told me it was picked up at a estate sale in the USA, but who knows. Ithink Prowse used to make the same looking interlocking keys.
Measure it, and we can compare it to the Wyldes...
Looks like it will be a nice flute when after you buff it out!

Here is a Firth and pond at the Dayton Museum: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/map_item.pl

Here is R&R interlocking key set-up...

Thanks Jon. It had certainly crossed my mind that, with an American provenance, the flute could well be American made with a deep curtsey in the direction of London........ It is likely to take up to 3 weeks to get to me, depending on whether it gets picked on by Customs, but I'll post some pics of it here when it arrives, as it arrives, before I do owt to it. The ones on eBay weren't brilliant to say the least, but enough to let me see the profile was promising, the keys were almost certainly silver and that it had the "claw", so I chanced my arm on it. Let's hope my gamble is a good one!
Meanwhile, anyone know of any more users of the design?

I've had a bit of a not terribly systematic and definitely not exhaustive browse through the DCM picture archive, and haven't come up with any more - though there's a flute by Edward Baack (DCM 1671) that at first glance looks like one; but a closer inspection suggests it is actually just a fancier version of the ledge cut-away overlap type.

Flutes I've found with "the Claw":
DCM 0716: Firth Hall & Pond
DCM 1505: Firth, Hall &Co.

An interesting variant - there are also some Firth and other American flutes that have a kind of flange on the C key interlocking a cutaway on the C#:
DCM 1251: Firth, Pond & Co.
DCM 0899: Firth, Pond & Co.
DCM 0780: William Hall & Son.
DCM 0113: William A. Pond & Co.
and DCM 0123: William Hall & Son. has something similar save that one seems to be able to see through the gap between the two keys.....

Well! The flute has arrived today. It needs a fair bit of work done - nothing too drastic though - some cracks to fix, but otherwise just a full clean and overhaul. The only two things that will be beyond me are making a new silver ferrule ring for the foot and turning a new stopper adjuster (the thread has stripped on the original). I think it is/will be a nice enough flute to justify paying someone who can to do so. I will post up some "before" pictures here soon to show its current state.
The best bit, though, is that it does have some rather faint but sufficiently legible maker's marks - it says "E. Baack N.York" in at least three places - so, the same Edward Baack as the flute I spotted which has a pseudo "claw" in the DCM. This one is a genuine, absolute full "claw". It isn't playable, but I can get enough out of it to stimulate my tuner and know that it will play at A=440 with an average tuning slide extension. Apart from having slightly smaller tone-holes in slightly higher positions, it looks quite remarkably like my R&R, but it is very much lighter - ignoring my R&R's Patent Head and just comparing the bodies, it is so light it has me wondering what timber it is. I am virtually certain it can't be (even very thoroughly) stained boxwood - and it certainly looks like cocus, just seems too light.

I can't wait to get it going and see how well it plays! I think I'll promote it to the front of the fettling queue. Mind you, I'm on a roll - I'm awaiting delivery of a Wylde from France and a Metzler from inland.......wheee!

I have it in mind to use this thread to do at least a "before and after" thing on the makeover of this flute, as some other members have done recently, plus to put out anything I discover about it and, I hope, receive contributions from others. I hope that won't infringe the spirit of the commercial posting rules - if and when I sell this flute, I'll advertise the fact separately.

Can any Langwill holders out there fill me in on what is known about Edward Baack?

OK, I'm still hoping for more info on Edward Baack - Terry, Jon C?????
Here's what I've got so far, from the DCM catalogue: seems he was active from 1837-1872 and there are three flutes by him in the DCM collection - two are 1-key boxwood jobs (DCM 0929 & DCM 1533) and the other is an 8-key in cocus with an ivory head and German Silver fittings ( DCM1671). He seems only to have stamped his flutes "E Baack N. York" including on my "new" one - no address, serial no. etc.

Pictures of "mine" coming as soon as I have time to edit and upload them...... watch this space - it's pretty, even in present condition!

Edward Baack rates as one of the more interesting characters in flute making history. Born Hamburg in June 1809, died NY 14 Dec 1893. Flourished NY 1837-1893. According to an unsubstantiated family tradition, he went to the US as a deserter from the German army in 1832. Set up as an importer and dealer with Paulus from 1837, then listed as a maker 1864-1872. Then retired insolvent due to wartime debts and economic crises. His premises included the retail downstairs, manufactory upstairs, and his home, wife and 12 children.

So at least he wasn't bored.

Terry

Terry McGee wrote: So at least he wasn't bored.

Terry

Well, we know his wife wasn't.

It does sound like he did a great deal of boring! Doubt he got bored himself, indeed.

Thanks for the info, Terry.

Baack to the matter in hand : here are some "as received" photos of the Edward Baack flute. BTW, it arrived with a previously unmentioned "cheater" in the box. There are marks on the head where it had been fitted, but only gunk, really: happily it had been fitted sensitively and has not damaged the wood. The close-ups follow their relevant whole-joint pic, and show either key points of interest or the main damage issues.

Dunno what's happened to my picture hoster - they're supposed to be checking up on where my pics have vanished to, but don't seem to be getting on with it! I guess I'll have to re-upload them somewhere else and relink 'em. Damn!

But that's not really why I've dredged up this thread. Rather it is because the Blackman flute Graeme/groxburgh has just posted for sale has claw-interlocked foot keys, even if they aren't mounted and are missing their lower sections/plugs! so that's another name to put on the list of Claw Makers.

Another "claw" maker - Bilton - cf nitterwhiskers' flute (pretty!) - <img src="http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5551/bintonmx6.jpg"[/img]>
just posted on this thread.