Playing beyond your skill level

[mahanpots]

I've been playing my current flute, an Olwell keyless Pratten, for more than 12 years. Overall, I may have been playing for nearly 20 years. I'd have to call my ex-wife and ask her when I bought my first flute.
I learned the basics from a good flute player, and from there went on to play at sessions, and about six or seven years ago, started playing small gigs with a couple of other players. Also took a lesson with John Skelton.
Skelton teaches a style of playing hard, pushing the flute to just beyond its limit, and that kind of playing fit in well with the session-goers and fellow musicians I'd been playing with. There was a great fiddle player at the sessions, Fred Lail of Greensboro, NC, who would often suggest slowing down the tunes and playing with more lilt. And I liked the sound he created in doing so. But most of the time, it was hard-driving rhythmic playing, reinforced by popular cds by Irish groups such as The Chieftains, Altan, Solas, Lunasa, etc.
In learning the basics, and then stepping up to fast-paced session playing, I missed an important step. I'm not sure what to call that step, but I'm glad I stumbled into Chiff and Fipple and found an opportunity to step off my high horse long enough to listen to some good criticism of my playing.

Thanks again,

Michael

Cocusflute wrote: (June 2007, Ireland):

When you play too fast you lose that rock-solid sense of the beat.
Speed is irrelevant. No matter how long you've been playing. It just doesn't matter- especially when you're playing by yourself.... Beauty isn't in the speed. Speed often gets in the way of the music even with some of the best players, ...It shouldn't make you tense. You should play slowly enough so that you play every note perfectly and make every ornament clear and rhythmic.

Sylvester wrote: (June 2007, Spain)

The problem arises when speed intersferes with pulse or rhythm. Pulse in Irish flute is both equally important and hard to get a clear notion for many of us.

bradhurley wrote: (2002, Canada)

A friend of mine says that playing good tunes too fast is "like roller-skating through the Louvre."

Chas wrote: (June 2007 USA)

...one thing about tempo. A difference of only a few percent can make all the difference in how a tune feels...

Wormdiet wrote: (2006, USA)

Fast-paced music can be absolutely brilliant or flat-out suck. Same as slow music.

Kenny wrote: (2006, Scotland)

"There's fast music and there's lively music and people don't [ always ] know the difference". The quote came from a banjo player named Padraig Morrell....

energy wrote: (2002)

I agree that speed can be quite distasteful and out of place. On the other hand, I think that it can be used well. I do not think that speed and "doing service to a tune" are mutually exclusive.

[Rob Sharer]

Michael. I really like the way you've collected opinions, rather than trying to settle on the "right" one. So sensible! Almost too sensible for this place. If you're not careful, you'll have a positive effect on the (often rancorous) tone of the discourse here on the C&F. Keep it up! Cheers,

Rob

[mahanpots]

Rob,

I think there's a lot of sage advice in here, and whether any of it might help someone with their understanding or playing of traditional Irish music depends on the person listening and the person writing it. One person's take on a subject might make sense to one person, while a different person's take might make the same sense to another.

Michael
And then there's always:
"Here's to you
and here's to me
and if we ever disagree,
well, the heck with you,
and here's to me."

[brotherwind]

Hi,
sessions tend to be fast and loud. After two years of playing, at session speed I can join in with most of the jigs I know and the occasional reel.

Then I try to relax, wait for the tunes I can manage, even struggling, and try, not to fall off the waggon. Probably it is not too bad to have to run once in a while, also playing with lots of volume just to train it a bit.
At home it's a different thing. I try to hold back, not playing too quick. Difficult task, however.

I guess the best progress I have made, was through playing along a slowed down loop of the tune I want to learn. It just feels painfully slow a progress. But I am confident, that on the long term, it's the way to go.

Good post of yours, Michael.

Cheers, Moritz

[cocusflute]

The comments offered here are thoughtful and well taken. Tone is seldom mentioned but is also worth a lot of consideration. Although tone is seldom mentioned on this forum, tone, unlike volume, is hard to quantify.

I much prefer a quieter, more penetrating tone than the sound of a flute that is overblown and forced. My personal preference is usually -- but not always -- a drier rather than a reedier sound. I prefer June to Mike - and they are both playing essentially a flute with the same design and maker.

I think the biggest obstacle to tone is the striving for volume. The curious thing is that when you try for a clear, consistent tone, rather than a loud voice, the workout you're giving your embouchure will enable you eventually to achieve more volume with less effort.

If you can hear yourself in the session that's really all you want. If you are playing in good form the other players will, hopefully, respond and play more quietly so that they can hear you as well. That's when you're really helping each other play together and when you're making the best music.

[sbfluter]

I have two tutorial CDs, one by June McCormack and one by fiddler Matt Cranitch. They will sometimes play a tune twice, once slow for learning and once again "at speed." Most of the time I can keep up with the at speed versions once I learn the tune well enough.

I can rarely keep up with anything on a professional musical CD or with the folks at my own session. I'm starting to despair of ever being able to, either. It looks like playing music will forever be a solo thing for me.

I really don't want to play fast. I just want to play with others and have fun. Why does everybody have to play so fast? Even for those who are perfectly capable at playing at those speeds, is it really better at that speed?

[ImNotIrish]

I just wanted to say thanks to all of you who have taken a minute to listen to my clips on the posting tunes sticky. I appreciate you candid comments and value your suggestions.
Like many of you I am trying to get a grasp of the music and playing styles. I believe I have enough to work on for the coming few months. Thanks again,

Arbo

[chas]

The comments offered here are thoughtful and well taken. Tone is seldom mentioned but is also worth a lot of consideration. Although tone is seldom mentioned on this forum, tone, unlike volume, is hard to quantify.

I much prefer a quieter, more penetrating tone than the sound of a flute that is overblown and forced. My personal preference is usually -- but not always -- a drier rather than a reedier sound. I prefer June to Mike - and they are both playing essentially a flute with the same design and maker.

I think the biggest obstacle to tone is the striving for volume. The curious thing is that when you try for a clear, consistent tone, rather than a loud voice, the workout you're giving your embouchure will enable you eventually to achieve more volume with less effort.

I was just thinking about this yesterday. I played for some time in the kitchen, which is all hard surfaces, rather than in the family room, which has a rug and lots of curtains. I tend to think of my tone as really lacking -- thin, unfocussed, airy. But in the kitchen with all that feedback it really sounded much fuller, pure and sweet.

As you said, one reason we don't discuss tone much is the difficulty in quantifying it and describing it. Also, different people are striving for different tones. You've got the people who love the Conal O'Grada big, fat sound, and those on the other extreme who strive for the Chris Norman pure sweet sound. I tend to be among the latter, although I think we all also strive for some tonal flexibility, and I sometimes practice the big dirty sound.

I think some people also confuse a good fat dirty tone with lots of volume. Chris Norman, with his much purer tone than most Irish flute players, plays with plenty of volume. I once saw him during a blackout and he had no trouble playing unamplified over a few hundred people, which included a lot of families with little kids, and his three-piece band. I don't know how he would compare to an Irish player with a big sound, but there's no reason anyone would need to play louder than that.

[rama]

yes i'm afraid it's true "my enthusiasm far exceeds my ability".

[daiv]

i had skipped over the basics, too, but it's never too late to go back!

[Cork]

...But most of the time, it was hard-driving rhythmic playing, reinforced by popular cds by Irish groups such as The Chieftains, Altan, Solas, Lunasa, etc.
In learning the basics, and then stepping up to fast-paced session playing, I missed an important step. I'm not sure what to call that step, but I'm glad I stumbled into Chiff and Fipple and found an opportunity to step off my high horse long enough to listen to some good criticism of my playing...

You've just said a mouthful, thank you, and it reminds me of something about myself.

I got lucky when it comes to flutes, for I took lessons for many years, and for years after that, so what I know about flutes has been drilled in, so to speak.

However, along with flute, in my teenage years I spent several years playing guitar, electric guitar, mostly in rock and roll bands. I, too, had my influences, as did most of my fellow players, and for the most part our influences were very advanced players, which seems close to what you mentioned about popular CDs by really good Irish players.

Basically, however, my not really having learned the fundamentals of guitar playing, and although at that time I could hold my own with some ripping good players, I burned out after several years, unlike you, who have somehow managed to stay with your instrument.

Moreover, seeing as how you are now willing to take an important step backwards, to fill in the missing blanks, so to speak, in my eyes I see that you have now reached a new level of musical maturity, and rather than your having taken a step backwards, I see that you have now taken a giant step forwards, and my congratulations to you!

[Flutered]

Methinks that a lot of things are linked with flute playing - it's a continuous balancing act. When I'm in some sort of balance .. the flute is light to hold, arms are relaxed, no tensing in the fingers, sealing the holes well, plenty of breath, can listen to the the music coming out, mouth feels easy, tone is solid, sounds in tune, timing is solid, can listen to neighbouring musician etc. and I'm going along nicely ...... but then, something tips - and I'm losing it. Maybe it's a shift in tempo or tension creeps in, my grip shifts or I skip too many breathing spots - whatever, but it's very easy to lose the balance and fall off the bike!
Which is why, I reckon the flute, for all it's apparent simplicity is a bloody awkward and frustrating instrument to play!! Very rewarding betimes but frustrating also.
Nothing to do but stop, rest and go at it again or if all fails put it away for the day and pick up a box or concertina where you press a button and the note pops out.

[Tony McGinley]

A very good post and some points to consider.

1. What is ITM and how should it be played?
2. Is the flute a lyrical or a rhythmic instrument?
3. Who has decided the style of session music?

I am Irish and for me there are two basic types of
Irish Traditional Music.
a. Dance music and
b. Songs or lyrical music. (Sean-Nós or Ballads)

There are also IMHO two (or indeed more) ways of
playing each of these two basic styles:
a. To dance to, or
b. to listen to.

One of the things that put me clean off ITM in my youth
were the Ceilí bands that whacked out the ballads and
the dance tunes in equally "bolted down" rhythms set
by the Boom-Ta-Ta of the drums and the darn awful
piano vamping. It was IMHO soul-less, expressionless,
tasteless, but perhaps OK to dance to.

Sean Ó Riada, IMHO, was one of the first to bring back
"music" into ITM - The Chieftains and many others have
subsequently taken up the noble task of re-amimating ITM.

Personally I much prefer the so called slow-airs of Irish
music as these, for me, hold the pathos and race memory
of a people to a greater level than the dance music.

That said, when I listen to Martin Hayes and Denis Cahill play
the ITM dance music in that slower and lyrical way, it has opened
a new doorway for me into a way of percieving and understanding
of the language of the music.

No doubt I will, yet again, have stirred-up a bit of a commotion
on this whole subject.

But sure isn't that what this place is all about??

.

[Flutered]

I suppose it's a bit off the topic, but I'd be with you there Tony. I grew up in Dublin and ITM was what the culchies did and it was typified in the 1970's by the ceilidh band sound, the fainne wearing 'gaelgoirs' and had a certain stuffy conservative nationalism attached to it. We were into punk at the time.
But I escaped to the hills around Dublin also at this time and developed a great grá for the real countryside of Ireland and the rural people who live here. When 20 years later, I took up playing this music I was drawn to the airs and snatches of songs that I knew. I recall remarking to a fiddler at one of the first sessions I went to, that I couldn't really 'get into' reels, they just seemed so much rhythm and so little melody and receiving a curious shrug. But of course, my ear developed and I soon appreciated the subtle and wonderful melodies that lie at the heart of many reels.
I can tolerate and appreciate the Ceilidh band sound for what it is now and there's often great tightness and drive in their playing. But often I hear a local session player or a recording on CD or radio and it's the real thing - an honest, simple but complex music. It's like a great breath of fresh air after all the electronic babble of this age.

[Gordon]

[quote="Cork
However, along with flute, in my teenage years I spent several years playing guitar, electric guitar, mostly in rock and roll bands. I, too, had my influences, as did most of my fellow players, and for the most part our influences were very advanced players, which seems close to what you mentioned about popular CDs by really good Irish players.
Basically, however, my not really having learned the fundamentals of guitar playing, and although at that time I could hold my own with some ripping good players, I burned out after several years, unlike you, who have somehow managed to stay with your instrument.
Moreover, seeing as how you are now willing to take an important step backwards, to fill in the missing blanks, so to speak, in my eyes I see that you have now reached a new level of musical maturity, and rather than your having taken a step backwards, I see that you have now taken a giant step forwards, and my congratulations to you![/quote]


Your experiences closely mirror my own - years and years of lead rock guitar playing before I ever touched a flute, let alone a wooden one and ITM. I first studied ITM with the pure and steady Jack Coen, but - as a former rocker -- always felt (somewhat secretly) inadequate at sessions against the flashier Malloy/McGoldrich/Crawford-inspired fluters.

Over time, I've come to re-appreciate the centered, regional playing I was first taught, not so much re-learning (as I believe I learned my early lessons well) as re-appreciating what I learned, and feeling more secure in playing it against the usual generic session fodder for the pleasure of the tunes, the rhythms and the flute itself. It's not a matter of speed, playing slow or fast, or volume and blistering tone, but a mind-set about the music, what it is and what it should be.