Chiff and Fipple Forums

i'll retract my 'scam/ripoff' assertions - that was based on an old ebay ad. the ads i currently see ain't as bad. so apologies, my bad.

While I agree, philosophically, I suppose, with Jim's feelings on third-world economics - and therefore won't refute them - I think your (Jim's) take on early Japanese products is a bit of a left turn.

Japan made really bad products that were, by and large, their own. Early Japanese guitars sucked, but everyone knew that. If you owned one, it was all you could afford. They looked different (cars, guitars, etc.), sometimes hilariously so, and were by and large awful. BUT - they were innovative, and tried things the American cars, guitars, etc., would not. They were clearly trying to find their way. It was not until Univox (a Japanese guitar co. I don't believe still exists) finally put out a Les Paul copy that scared Gibson enough for them to get sued, that the clearly inferior but suddenly not-so-funny Japanese guitar market erupted into fine instruments that were (once) a bit cheaper than USA made ones. We won't even discuss what happened between Japanese auto makers and Detroit.

My point is that - unlike Japanese motivations - whatever Pakistani company is cranking out unplayable flutes and calling them Irish flutes are not trying to be innovative, original, experimental -- or even good - at all. In all the years I've seen them sold, I have not heard or seen any real improvement except that they sure look nice (and just like a good flute), but, fundamentally, are not. They know how to market them. Sure, they're inexpensive, but even an inexpensive PVC flute can be made to play in tune. No one there seems to be trying. The poor workers may need that job, and I sympathize, but the company cranking them out is perfectly happy to make whatever profit they can, while the market is out there.

Gordon wrote:
My point is that - unlike Japanese motivations - whatever Pakistani company is cranking out unplayable flutes and calling them Irish flutes are not trying to be innovative, original, experimental -- or even good - at all. In all the years I've seen them sold, I have not heard or seen any real improvement except that they sure look nice (and just like a good flute), but, fundamentally, are not. They know how to market them. Sure, they're inexpensive, but even an inexpensive PVC flute can be made to play in tune. No one there seems to be trying. The poor workers may need that job, and I sympathize, but the company cranking them out is perfectly happy to make whatever profit they can, while the market is out there.

The other possibility is that the Pakistani companies (some at least) are deliberatly trying to make beautiful flutes that are out of tune. The reasoning behind this is that the consumer will continue to keep buying inadequate-playing flutes until they finally find one that meets their needs. This is somewhat like the Western idea of planned obsolescence. I'm only joking with this proposition, folks. I have no idea why the intonation of the otherwise beautiful Pakistani flutes is usually so inadequate. What bothers me more is the professional music companies (I'm familiar with USA companies) that falsely advertise these flutes as excellent playing flutes, when they have to know that their advertisement is a lie. I returned two of these flutes several years ago, but the music companies never would acknowledge that, yes, they were bad flutes. They left me with the impression that they thought that I was being over-particular.

Excellent point, Doug -- IMO, these companies are more to blame, in a direct way, for the sale of these flutes than the Pakistani makers themselves. Most naifs won't bid and buy on Ebay, but they will from a "trustworthy" store, in, say, San Francisco, that assures them it's a great buy.

FWIW, I've added the correspondence I had recently with Empire Brass in India to the Beware of cheap ebay (Pakistani) flutes! Sticky.

I don't suppose your prospective customer was this lot, Terry?

What ever you do, tell us what you do and why.
I need closure.

jemtheflute wrote:FWIW, I've added the correspondence I had recently with Empire Brass in India to the Beware of cheap ebay (Pakistani) flutes! Sticky.

I don't suppose your prospective customer was this lot, Terry?

The correspondence says the company is aware of the
problems with the flutes and means to correct them
'in the next year.' First they need to get their distribution
outlet settled, they say. The correspondent agrees
the company can make better flutes and that the
quality is low.

Jem thinks they've got the order of things wrong,
but maybe these guys are making sound business
decisions.

It might be insincere but it might be true. There is no reason
these folks have to correspond with us at all. The correspondent
says he will be in touch with Jem.

Jem's point is that they can, without much trouble,
make flutes that sound good (as well as look good).
The correspondent seems to agree.

Such flutes
might well have a market and the price would
still be pretty low.

Kudos to Jem for this positive step.

There is some reason, therefore, though not a decisive
one, to think these folks mean to upgrade. The apparent
effort from Pakistan to get Terry's plans is reason
to think something like this is afoot there.

Obviously any effort we make to help these folks
might backfire. Not like there's a guarantee it won't.
Such is life, frankly.

That these companies have concentrated on appearances
as opposed to playability may be an indication
of dishonesty and the lack of any intention of ever making
a good flute. But there are other straightforward business
reasons why they might have put their emphasis
on something that looks good, namely, they are
better able to get an initial market via the cosmetics.
One might take this as strong evidence of a deep and
intractable lack of concern about intonation, etc,
but I don't see that one must.

jim stone wrote:
That these companies have concentrated on appearances
as opposed to playability may be an indication
of dishonesty and the lack of any intention of ever making
a good flute. But there are other straightforward business
reasons why they might have put their emphasis
on something that looks good, namely, they are
better able to get an initial market via the cosmetics.
One might take this as strong evidence of a deep and
intractable lack of concern about intonation, etc,
but I don't see that one must.

I agree. When is the last time any of us bought a product that looked poor but we assumed the quality was very much hidden under the ugly facade? Antique furniture being the exception. Most of us are first attracted by what we see as a fine product only to find out later that 'appearances aren't everything.' They aren't everything, but you've gotta start somewhere. Don't you? Let's hope that these folks, having mastered the fashion are now ready to master the physics.

jim stone wrote: Jem's point is that they can, without much trouble,
make flutes that sound good (as well as look good).

Not quite, Jim. My point in my post about Empire Brass flutes specifically was that they already sound quite good. With better cut embouchures to make the flutes speak well and some small improvement to the toneholes/intonation (its not bad at all), they would be fine. They are not like some of the wooden ones we see that will not speak at all and/or are desperately out on tune. My main criticism was the poor ergonomic design of the keywork. If they sorted those issues out and could still retail in the West for about £180/U$350-ish (which seems highly likely), I think they would completely knock the bottom out of the keyless market. If beginners could get a decently playable 8-key at that sort of money, why would they bother with keyless? Seery, M&E etc. would lose most of their market.

Let's remember the main reason modern ITM keyless flutes developed was economic - to provide cheap alternatives to good fully keyed flutes, antique or new-made, that are too expensive for entry level experimentation, and to help beginners avoid having to use duff/knackered old low-grade 8-key flutes. It wasn't because people actually wanted/preferred keyless. The keyless may now have taken off as a style in their own right, but I think most players still hanker after the full works and would have started that way if they could.

I agree with Jim that some of the wooden keyless things coming out of Pakistan are cosmetically excellent on the exterior, but the ones I have laid hands on have been totally unplayable, due to either appalling intonation or useless embouchure cut or both. If the undoubtedly skilled woodturners who make them could be given correct interior bore specifications and taught to cut playable embouchures and accurately placed and sized tone-holes, they too could be serious contenders. The Empire ones are frustratingly much closer to usefulness than that.