Help! Ethical Dilemma!

[jim stone]

Can't you see it now, the New Pakistan,
Lahore on Sunday, happy people driving
new automobiles or walking
with their well dressed smiling kids past the
Terry McGee Shrine?

[rama]

Sorry. I probably was over-reacting. I just didn't see how we got from 'someone in Pakistan' to 'they want to rip off people. scam artists. to their mindset, that's good business practice.'

I'll read through again.

i agree, but there is more to it as terry wrote:

" You will also be aware that at least one Pakistani-based company offers Irish flutes of very low quality, marketed via regular music outlets and more recently Ebay. I have been asked by someone in Pakistan that I suspect is associated with this manufacturer to purchase a copy of these plans. I have not yet responded..."

as you see terry "suspects association". ( now i'm not suggesting he's correct or not about that). now read the sticky thread 'beware of cheap pakistani flutes'' (hence my use of 'rip off'). and then read the ebay ads in question (relates to my 'scam' remark).
btw, i'm not linking the person->ebay company->pakistan manufactured flutes. if you have questions about that, ask terry as those are his suspicions and assumptions.
bottom line for me is terry's afraid of getting caught up in something bad, just to make some money himself by selling the plans. why bother? the worse case is they are scam artists. if that is appealing then by all means get involved, there is money to be made.
if not, then simply stay away.

[Aanvil]

Thats is my understanding as well.

Even with a short exchange I had in that Pakistan flute thread with a person claiming to belong to Empire brass I found there was a distinct attempt to mislead.

China isn't quite the same as Pakistan.

China's sweat shops are luxurious in comparison.

The even offer 5 cent dirt naps and organ transplants free of charge as an added incentive.


Please note that my post does at least have the word "flute" in it.

[rama]

a few years ago i had email exchanges with the ebay company. same deal as you had aanvil. i thought they might not know just how inferior their item was (you know those things that appear when you search on "irish flute"). they didn't want to hear about it.
oh, they know exactly what they are doing.

[rama]

my sneaking suspicion is that this mystery person that contacted terry for those plans is our very own jim stone in disguise. if he only had those plans why he could change the tide of world economy. the future of our planet hinges on his mission. this is why it is such a monumental decision that terry is facing.
i predict, in the end, it will be flutes stamped "stone&mcgee flute company, pakistan" that everyone will prize. and they will be found on ebay by the dozen. rudall and rose? forgetaboutit

[Aanvil]

ok now.. leave Jim alone.

His heart is in the right place.

[jim stone]

OK, I've been watching these flutes go by on e bay
for awhile. I've also just read the sticky thread on Pakistani
flutes, etc.

I haven't seen everything and don't know what I haven't
seen but I haven't yet seen 'scam artists' or
'rip off artists.'

Here's what I do see.

Junk flutes produced cheap in Pakistan trying to
get into the Irish flute market in the west.
I haven't played these but obviously they are
a waste of money.

However occasionally there are reports of good or
at least better ones and arguably there are some
signs of improvement.

The advertising copy seems often to be written in
the West by the retailer, who says these
are 'must have' flutes, etc.

So what I see is the beginning of an Asian flute
industry. You'all may not remember but the first
wave of instruments (indeed, products in general)
from such countries (Japan) were junk, bad copies, cheaply
produced, taking advantage of cheap labor,
and sold at a low price.

I remember when Japan was thought of as you'all
are thinking of Pakistan. 'Japanese Import'
was short for crap. Then the Japanese stuff
got a bit better, then a bit better.....

The Japanese stuff wasn't a 'scam.'

Whoever is writing the marketing is trying to sell
the flutes--they obvioulsy aren't going to say
these are junk, they're going to say they're
worth having 'for the professional.'
But that ain't a scam. They can't very well tell
the truth and, frankly, that's how advertising
goes in Asia.

Nothing in the sticky thread, at least nothing I saw,
seems to me to warrant the claim that this is
a 'scam' and these are 'rip off' artists.. Empire Flutes is in India,
and the testimonial letters seem to me authentic.
One is in Indian English, the other from somebody
in the West appears to have been copied badly
so that it becomes badly written, but that's typical
in India. Looks OK to me.

So far I don't see these charges as warranted. This ain't
the Nigerian scam. It's just the third world trying
to break into wooden flutes.

If these people are rip off artists and scam artists,
and if marketing flutes as 'Prattens' is going to help
them sell flutes (Terry is concerned his plans would
give them that opportunity), as they have got as
far as Terry's site they know about Pratten flutes.

SO, being rip off artists, they would just market the flutes as 'Prattens.'
Nothing could stop them. They don't need
to buy the plans.

There is, therefore, reasonable indication that they
want the plans to make better flutes. This doesn't
look like the 'worst case scenario.'

Probably the individual contacting Terry is from a flute
company, but I wouldn't read an evil scheme into it.
If you were such an individual and you found the
plans on Terry's site with no conditions at a set price,
it would be sensible to simply write to Terry to
purchase them.

We know flutes, these are bad--but where you'all
are seeing scam artists and thinking, why get
involved with these 'rip offs' I see what I've
seen with so many Asian products at the
beginning, plus some indication that the
products are already improving and
this recent evidence that they're trying
to upgrade.

Last thought: the asian instruments seldom go for the
first rank. They end up with something competent
and relatively inexpensive but not great. They're
not interested in making McGees and Olwells.
They don't mean to compete with Martin and Gibson.
They want a less good, less expensive adequate
copy. I don't think they are going to end up a serious
threat to quality flute makers.

[s1m0n]

Realize that this pakistani manufacturer has probably approached any number of recognized flutemakers in the world with the same offer.

While I'm sure every maker has made a lot of detailed measurements of historical flutes, I'm not aware of anyone other than Terry who has published these and offered them for sale.

[Terry McGee]

Hi all

Just wanting to thank everyone for their advice re my "ethical dilemma". I'm not going to attempt to respond to specific comments, as much as I'm tempted to. Gotta reserve some time for flute making and playing! I had wondered if it was too silly a question to ask, and your many and varied responses are therefore a comfort!

Terry

[rama]

jim, "beware of cheap pakistani flutes". you will likely get ripped off. unsuspecting people buy this stuff, which appears like good flutes, but rarely are. you'll likely get junk. so don't be fooled. it's a scam. they make great parts for lamps etc. though.

i got the impression from reading you post that you can't see this, so that's why i'm warning you now.

however even though we are warn people against buying them, you should encourage folks to buy them. seems it would support your argument greatly.

[daiv]

OK, I've been watching these flutes go by on e bay
for awhile. I've also just read the sticky thread on Pakistani
flutes, etc.

I haven't seen everything and don't know what I haven't
seen but I haven't yet seen 'scam artists' or
'rip off artists.'

Here's what I do see.

Junk flutes produced cheap in Pakistan trying to
get into the Irish flute market in the west.
I haven't played these but obviously they are
a waste of money.

However occasionally there are reports of good or
at least better ones and arguably there are some
signs of improvement.

The advertising copy seems often to be written in
the West by the retailer, who says these
are 'must have' flutes, etc.

So what I see is the beginning of an Asian flute
industry. You'all may not remember but the first
wave of instruments (indeed, products in general)
from such countries (Japan) were junk, bad copies, cheaply
produced, taking advantage of cheap labor,
and sold at a low price.

I remember when Japan was thought of as you'all
are thinking of Pakistan. 'Japanese Import'
was short for crap. Then the Japanese stuff
got a bit better, then a bit better.....

The Japanese stuff wasn't a 'scam.'

Whoever is writing the marketing is trying to sell
the flutes--they obvioulsy aren't going to say
these are junk, they're going to say they're
worth having 'for the professional.'
But that ain't a scam. They can't very well tell
the truth and, frankly, that's how advertising
goes in Asia.

Nothing in the sticky thread, at least nothing I saw,
seems to me to warrant the claim that this is
a 'scam' and these are 'rip off' artists.. Empire Flutes is in India,
and the testimonial letters seem to me authentic.
One is in Indian English, the other from somebody
in the West appears to have been copied badly
so that it becomes badly written, but that's typical
in India. Looks OK to me.

So far I don't see these charges as warranted. This ain't
the Nigerian scam. It's just the third world trying
to break into wooden flutes.

If these people are rip off artists and scam artists,
and if marketing flutes as 'Prattens' is going to help
them sell flutes (Terry is concerned his plans would
give them that opportunity), as they have got as
far as Terry's site they know about Pratten flutes.

SO, being rip off artists, they would just market the flutes as 'Prattens.'
Nothing could stop them. They don't need
to buy the plans.

There is, therefore, reasonable indication that they
want the plans to make better flutes. This doesn't
look like the 'worst case scenario.'

Probably the individual contacting Terry is from a flute
company, but I wouldn't read an evil scheme into it.
If you were such an individual and you found the
plans on Terry's site with no conditions at a set price,
it would be sensible to simply write to Terry to
purchase them.

We know flutes, these are bad--but where you'all
are seeing scam artists and thinking, why get
involved with these 'rip offs' I see what I've
seen with so many Asian products at the
beginning, plus some indication that the
products are already improving and
this recent evidence that they're trying
to upgrade.

Last thought: the asian instruments seldom go for the
first rank. They end up with something competent
and relatively inexpensive but not great. They're
not interested in making McGees and Olwells.
They don't mean to compete with Martin and Gibson.
They want a less good, less expensive adequate
copy. I don't think they are going to end up a serious
threat to quality flute makers.

i agree. if they were trying to scam customers, they would be selling them for more than they're worth. from what i have seen, the sellers of pakistani flutes are selling shoddy merchandise for dirt cheap, which is fair enough for me!

[Denny]

me too...

you can spend more on the base, fixture, bulb & shade tryin' to make somethin' outta it

[Guinness]

Sorry. I probably was over-reacting. I just didn't see how we got from 'someone in Pakistan' to 'they want to rip off people. scam artists. to their mindset, that's good business practice.'

I'll read through again.

i agree, but there is more to it as terry wrote:

" You will also be aware that at least one Pakistani-based company offers Irish flutes of very low quality, marketed via regular music outlets and more recently Ebay. I have been asked by someone in Pakistan that I suspect is associated with this manufacturer to purchase a copy of these plans. I have not yet responded..."

as you see terry "suspects association". ( now i'm not suggesting he's correct or not about that)...

Where is the evidence of this "association"? The population of Pakistan is >161 million.

...now read the sticky thread 'beware of cheap pakistani flutes'' (hence my use of 'rip off'). and then read the ebay ads in question (relates to my 'scam' remark). btw, i'm not linking the person->ebay company->pakistan manufactured flutes.

Sorry, I disagree.

if you have questions about that, ask terry as those are his suspicions and assumptions. bottom line for me is terry's afraid of getting caught up in something bad, just to make some money himself by selling the plans. why bother? the worse case is they are scam artists. if that is appealing then by all means get involved, there is money to be made.
if not, then simply stay away.

It is unethical to make decisions without the facts or worse, act upon stereotypes and xenophobic proclivities. As I had stated earlier, all we know is the inquirer is purportedly Pakistani, that is all.

Change the country to China or Vietnam or Korea and I'm sure we'll have the basis for another discussion. Turn our gaze inward and we see a long record of: slavery, sweat shops, environmental mismanagement, belligerence, capricious international trade policies including absurd embargos, etc. etc. Now ask why would other nations want to do business with us?

[Flutered]

Turn our gaze inward and we see a long record of: slavery, sweat shops, environmental mismanagement, belligerence, capricious international trade policies including absurd embargos, etc. etc. Now ask why would other nations want to do business with us?

That's the point, Guinness. It ill behoves citizens of the USA and Western Europe to be pontificating about shoddy labour laws and conditions for workers. We have set the standards for these a long time ago..

[rama]

Sorry. I probably was over-reacting. I just didn't see how we got from 'someone in Pakistan' to 'they want to rip off people. scam artists. to their mindset, that's good business practice.'

I'll read through again.

i agree, but there is more to it as terry wrote:
" You will also be aware that at least one Pakistani-based company offers Irish flutes of very low quality, marketed via regular music outlets and more recently Ebay. I have been asked by someone in Pakistan that I suspect is associated with this manufacturer to purchase a copy of these plans. I have not yet responded..."

as you see terry "suspects association". ( now i'm not suggesting he's correct or not about that)...

Where is the evidence of this "association"? The population of Pakistan is >161 million.

don't ask me, again terry wrote. "..i have been asked by someone i suspect is associated..'

...now read the sticky thread 'beware of cheap pakistani flutes'' (hence my use of 'rip off'). and then read the ebay ads in question (relates to my 'scam' remark). btw, i'm not linking the person->ebay company->pakistan manufactured flutes.

Sorry, I disagree.

don't be sorry if you disagree, buy their flutes! maybe they can change their ebay ad to include an endorsement by you.

if you have questions about that, ask terry as those are his suspicions and assumptions. bottom line for me is terry's afraid of getting caught up in something bad, just to make some money himself by selling the plans. why bother? the worse case is they are scam artists. if that is appealing then by all means get involved, there is money to be made.
if not, then simply stay away.

there is no decision made. a worst case scenario was presented.

It is unethical to make decisions without the facts or worse, act upon stereotypes and xenophobic proclivities. As I had stated earlier, all we know is the inquirer is purportedly Pakistani, that is all.

Change the country to China or Vietnam or Korea and I'm sure we'll have the basis for another discussion. Turn our gaze inward and we see a long record of: slavery, sweat shops, environmental mismanagement, belligerence, capricious international trade policies including absurd embargos, etc. etc. Now ask why would other nations want to do business with us?