Help! Ethical Dilemma!

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Whistlin'Dixie
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Post by Whistlin'Dixie »

Cubitt wrote:
jim stone wrote: I'm just mean and depraved.
You're depraved on account of you're deprived.

Sorry. . .felt some "Officer Krupke" from West Side Story coming on.

(The trouble is he's lazy,
The trouble is he drinks,
The trouble is he's crazy,
The trouble is he stinks,
The trouble is he's growing,
The trouble is he's grown.
Krupke, we've got troubles of our own.)
Cubitt, I'm not sure where this came from, but I read it as a personal a***ck, and I'm not so sure Jim's comments so far warrant that.
He has his own opinions, based on his own experience, and Terry has asked for folks thoughts on the matter, I think

M
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Post by jemtheflute »

Whistlin'Dixie wrote:
Cubitt wrote:
jim stone wrote: I'm just mean and depraved.
You're depraved on account of you're deprived.

Sorry. . .felt some "Officer Krupke" from West Side Story coming on.

(The trouble is he's lazy,
The trouble is he drinks,
The trouble is he's crazy,
The trouble is he stinks,
The trouble is he's growing,
The trouble is he's grown.
Krupke, we've got troubles of our own.)
Cubitt, I'm not sure where this came from, but I read it as a personal a***ck, and I'm not so sure Jim's comments so far warrant that.
He has his own opinions, based on his own experience, and Terry has asked for folks thoughts on the matter, I think

M
I don't want to see this excellent and thus far very sane and remarkably consensual thread (even the two identifiable schools of thought aren't all that far apart) diverted any further! Mary, I think you're wrong here. Maybe Cubitt can enlighten us, but I thought he was just playing word/association games upon Jim's lighthearted use of the word "depraved". I too associate it rather strongly with the comic (though with an ironic social/political message) lyric of the song Cubitt quotes (and reflects the irony) - which also kinda fits in with some of what Jim was saying. I'm sure no personal attack was intended - nor can I really see why you read it so. (Have you ever seen West Side Story?)
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

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jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

Thanks, Mary,
and there's no question in my mind
that Cubitt was simply being playful.
Fine with me.

Gee officer Krupke
We're down on our knees
Cause no one wants a fellow
With a social disease!
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Post by jim stone »

s1m0n wrote:I'd sell. You made the plans to sell to makers, and it's massively something (condescending? selfish? hypocritical? First-worldist?) to refuse to sell because the 'wrong' maker wants to buy.

We fault Pakistanis for making poor flutes for ITM. Here's a possible pakistani flutemaker who's expressing the desire to make better flutes. I think the honourable course is to sell him the plans and let him try to make better flutes than he has been.

Deliberately keeping him in the dark is acting like the proverbial dog in the manger.
Yes, i agree:

There' s now significant evidence these folks
wish to make better flutes. Definitely worth
counting that fact in one's moral deliberations.
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Ronbo
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Post by Ronbo »

I agree with Jim's positions for the most part. On this one, I have to depart. As others have said, it is a business position, not a moral position. It is only a moral situation depending on how much of your personal feelings get tangled up in this. You are not this company's keeper. If they are truly interested in making quality flutes, they have other alternatives than buying plans. How about they do a little research on their own?

Realize that this pakistani manufacturer has probably approached any number of recognized flutemakers in the world with the same offer. He may have been turned down by as many for very good reasons. Keep your powder dry. Don't jump into any decisions that you have not researched completely.

You are a businessman, with an excellent reputation. You have far more to lose than a few bucks, should you make the wrong decision. Look into all aspects of a potential "deal" with these people, and make sure that you confer with at least one good legal mind before you proceed. The cost of a lawyer's help may save you a lot of pain and agony in the long run. After all your years of hard work and dedication, you don't want to end up with a smeared reputation. :)
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Post by rama »

where's "significant evidence" ?
they want to rip off people. scam artists. to their mindset, that's good business practice.
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cocusflute
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Forbearance...

Post by cocusflute »

Re: Flute-making and sweatshop labor.
Stone is wrong on many counts. The usual right-wing justification for sweatshop labor is that the benefits of industrialization will extend to the workers eventually. The old trickle down theory. This is wrong, as witness the shrinking American middle-class. Profits don't trickle down. They stay where they are. In deep pockets.
Whether the owner is native or foreign, people who invest in manufacturing are interested in profit first, profit second and third, and fourth... more profit. I doubt very much whether the Pakistani flute-craftsmen would prosper from access to Terry's designs any more than rug weavers or leather workers would profit from having Armani's designs. The benefits of globalization for third world workers is a Freidmanesque myth, supported in by conservative Republicans, who brought you repressive governments in Chile, Guatemela, El Salvador, Iran, et. al.
Pakistan is rapidly heading towards collapse. No doubt another form of dictatorship will arise there, supported by the USA. I would not want to be associated with a government of this sort. I doubt Terry would.
I too have traveled in Pakistan and lived and done business there. Most people are just people- kind or mean, generous or selfish. In all countries, those who work the hardest often best know the value of kindness. But what has this to do with Terry's flute designs?
This thread is a perfect example of the meld of politics, flute-making, and economics. We're just talking, and sometimes the discussion gets heated. So far nobody has been flamed or is flaming. It's a good thread. Thanks to all.
The struggle in Palestine is an American war, waged from Israel, America's most heavily armed foreign base and client state. We don't think of the war in such terms. Its assigned role has been clear: the destruction of Arab culture and nationalism.
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sbfluter
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Post by sbfluter »

Uh-oh. It's off to the political controversy forum for this thread!
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Cubitt
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Post by Cubitt »

jim stone wrote:Thanks, Mary,
and there's no question in my mind
that Cubitt was simply being playful.
Fine with me.

Gee officer Krupke
We're down on our knees
Cause no one wants a fellow
With a social disease!
Jim,

I am very pleased that you not only got the joke, but can actually quote more of the song back at me!

Mary,

Sorry you got the wrong impression, but as Jim can tell you, I have more than once specifically complimented him on comments that he has contributed - most recently on the thread about memorizing tunes.

Cheers.
"In times of trial, swearing often provides a solace denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain
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Post by jim stone »

Cocus, suppose these folks make better flutes and therefore
sell more flutes. Then what happens to the profits?
Well, in these circumstances, profits often go into producing more
flutes, also into diversifying into the production of other
things. Not out of altruism but those making decisions
want to make more money. Producing more flutes means more jobs.
People have to make the flutes.
Improving machinery and buying the means to diversify into
other ventures also creates more jobs in the industries
that make machinery. If this happens
across a wide enough front, the demand for labor
goes up, hence wages tend to rise. Also in most of these
regimes you have collective bargaining and, the more labor
is needed, the more leverage unions have. What you get
is rapid economic growth in countries starting with
very little. More gets sold, more gets made, businesses
expand, more people get hired (good thing!), wages go up,
meanwhile there's diversification into producing more
sophisticated things, more skilled labor is needed,
wages go up.

I take myself to be describing the process that has transformed
the economies of several Asian nations. The profits don't all
go into deep pockets there, at least not for a long while.
They go into increasing the means of production,
product improvement, and diversification.

It isn't trickle down to hire more people--the difference between
employment and unemployement isn't trickle down.
Workers are working at a low wage, but at least they
are working, and the profits made on their labor go
into expanding production--so that more people get
hired and wages go up.

There has been rapid economic growth in
Asia. If this isn't what explains what happened in
Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore, China,
what does? (sincere question)
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sbfluter
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Post by sbfluter »

Image

Caption: At a factory in Jiangsu Province, workers making musical instruments earn about $130 a month. A new labor law in China would permit them to negotiate higher wages and better health and pension benefits.
Story

The article doesn't exactly support any notion that all these factory workers are living the good life.

Also, it's not quite equivalent is it, a craftsman like Terry compared to a factory full of instrument makers making $130 a month.

I think daiv hit the nail on the head that if Terry does decide to sell the plans, he should consider an appropriate price if he's intending to sell to an operation of this kind of scale. This is how software is sold and it makes sense.
~ Diane
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Post by Bridges-PdP »

rama wrote:they want to rip off people. scam artists. to their mindset, that's good business practice.
Did I miss a post somewhere?
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rama
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Post by rama »

i have no idea what you're missing, i'm as clueless as you appear to be
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Post by Bridges-PdP »

Sorry. I probably was over-reacting. I just didn't see how we got from 'someone in Pakistan' to 'they want to rip off people. scam artists. to their mindset, that's good business practice.'

I'll read through again.
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Post by jim stone »

[quote="sbfluter"]Image

Caption: At a factory in Jiangsu Province, workers making musical instruments earn about $130 a month. A new labor law in China would permit them to negotiate higher wages and better health and pension benefits.
Story

The article doesn't exactly support any notion that all these factory workers are living the good life.

quote]

China probably doesn't belong on my list.
But China has come a long way economically since it began to allow
the process I mentioned above to begin.
By the way fiddles and mandolins are a part
of Chinese economic growth.

From wiki economic reform in China

At the milestone Third Plenum of the National Party Congress's 11th Central Committee in December 1978, the party leaders decided to undertake a program of gradual but fundamental reform of the economic system. They concluded that the Maoist version of the centrally planned economy had failed to produce efficient economic growth and had caused China to fall far behind not only the industrialized nations of the West but also the new industrial powers of Asia: Japan, the Republic of Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. In the late 1970s, while Japan and Hong Kong rivaled European countries in modern technology, China's citizens had to make do with barely sufficient food supplies, rationed clothing, inadequate housing, and a service sector that was inadequate and inefficient. All of these shortcomings embarrassed China internationally.

The purpose of the reform program was not to abandon communism but to make it work better by substantially increasing the role of market mechanisms in the system and by reducing--not eliminating-- government planning and direct control. The process of reform was incremental. New measures were first introduced experimentally in a few localities and then were popularized and disseminated nationally if they proved successful. By 1987 the program had achieved remarkable results in increasing supplies of food and other consumer goods and had created a new climate of dynamism and opportunity in the economy. At the same time, however, the reforms also had created new problems and tensions, leading to intense questioning and political struggles over the program's future.

P.S. The problems include inflation, the deteroriation of morals,
and challenging of Communist Party Authority.
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