Flutes in Irish Music - How far back?

[peeplj]

A question has been growing in my mind for quite some time: I have read several different places how nineteenth-century flutes found their way into Irish traditional music as they were picked up second-hand as the new Boehm-system flute gained in popularity.

Was this actually the first introduction of the transverse flute into Ireland? Were flutes played in Ireland during the age of the Baroque traverso? If not, how were the Irish trad musicians of the day familiar enough with their sound to know they would work with the music? What was their motivation for buying the flutes in the first place?

My understanding is that in the Nineteenth century in England the flute was at the greatest level of popularity it has ever enjoyed, but even so it doesn't seem likely that the farmers and workers in Ireland playing dance music would have been overly exposed to the pastimes of the English gentry?

Thanks all.

--James

P.S. I had posted this first on the ITM board, and it was suggested I post it here as well.


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[johnkerr]

My understanding is that in the Nineteenth century in England the flute was at the greatest level of popularity it has ever enjoyed, but even so it doesn't seem likely that the farmers and workers in Ireland playing dance music would have been overly exposed to the pastimes of the English gentry?

Read a bit of Irish history, and you'll discover that the English gentry (sometimes known as the Anglo-Irish) spent a good bit of time in the 18th and 19th century living in the so-called "big houses" spread throughout the Irish countryside. They likely would have been the landlords of the farmers and workers of whom you speak. Read enough of it, and not only will you learn about how the Irish farmers and workers could have been exposed to flute music, but you'll also learn why the Irish have such a soft spot in their hearts for the English to this very day.

And aside from that, Ireland was not quite the musical backwater you might think of it as being. Did you know that the world premiere of Handel's Messiah took place in Dublin?

[Terry McGee]

James

"Chief" O'Neill (himself a flute player), talks about it a little bit in his book, Irish Minstrels and Musicians, reprinted 1987 by Mercier Press from the 1913 original. He starts his Chapter XXVII - The Flute and Its Patrons - with the bold statement:

"No musical instrument was in such common use among the Irish peasantry as the flute. From the "penny whistle" to the keyed instrument in sections, it was always deservedly popular, for, unlike the fiddle and the bagpipe it involved no expense beyond the purchase price. Complete in itself, it needed but a wetting [Arghhhh!] to be always in tune, and disjointed or whole could be carried about without display or inconvenience. Besides, if not broken by accident or design [huh?], it would outlive its owner."

Unfortunately he goes on to note that there isn't much in the way of historical information. He does talk about a few specific flute players - Oliver Goldsmith being the earliest (born 1728).

Terry

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

I forget what archeology has revealed, I believe there are a few Neolithic bone flutes that've been discovered in Ireland. There are mentions of cuisleannaigh in the old annals, which apparently means some kind of pipe blower, as opposed to piobarie = bagpiper, who only show up around the 12th century, when "bagpipe fever" swept Europe.

These cuisellaneaigh would've played instruments made out of the native timbers, possibly box but more likely elder, which was commonly used across Europe for a hornpipe, an instrument which is, simply put, a bagpipe chanter sans bag, which of course later gave its name to the dance. These are powered by a single reed however, like the reeds used in bagpipe drones today, a tube with a slit cut into it.

There were first hand accounts from musicians like Josie McDermott of fifes being made from elder shoots, or furawan, a bamboo-ish weed. Who knows how long that had been going on. Fifes also swept the continent around the 14th century, in their martial application, spreading out from Switzerland of all places. Breathnach says there are also mentions in old Irish literature of feadan, or foghurbhinn (sweet-sounding), which Breathnach says was a type of whistle.

[Flutered]

I have read several different places how nineteenth-century flutes found their way into Irish traditional music as they were picked up second-hand as the new Boehm-system flute gained in popularity.

I think the key point here maybe is that while whistles and flutes fashioned out of elder etc. would have been in use ... the above mentioned instruments were more durable and better constructed. These would have been too expensive for most Irish playing the traditional dance tunes in the very poor economy of the times. But when they fell out of fashion and into second hand junk shops, markets etc., then they were purchased at a cheap price and put to good use.
Which doesn't really address your question directly! But if there are clues in language, the Irish for a whistle is 'feadóg' and a flute is a 'feadóg mhór' or a big whistle. So maybe both were seen as a similar instrument and the whistle has been around in many cultures for many centuries.[/list]

[jim stone]

Which raises the question of when whistles arrived in Ireland.
There would have needed to be a ready source,
not your odd whistle rarely seen.
The Clarke, I believe, was the first mass produced
whistle, in England in the 1840s.

[Gordon]

Manufactured whistles are a different issue. Whistles made from reeds, willow (no idea how that's done; just repeating what I learned years ago), and other materials were commonplace in almost every culture globally. Not sure whistles needed to "arrive" in Ireland. Fairly creative bunch, I understand.

[jim stone]

I suppose your point holds for transverse flutes/fifes as well.

So the question remains: were whistles being used in
Irish music in 1750, say. I mean widely enough that
they were widely used.

And the same goes for
flutes/fifes.

[johnkerr]

So the question remains: were whistles being used in
Irish music in 1750, say. I mean widely enough that
they were widely used.

And the same goes for
flutes/fifes.

Before asking this question, you need to ask yourself what was "Irish music" in 1750, anyway? Hint: Whatever it was, it bore more resemblance to Baroque chamber music than to the jigs and reels played today. 1750 is only twelve years after the death of Carolan, and 48 years before the Belfast Harper's Convention of 1798, which basically codified the state of "Irish music" at that time. No doubt you've heard the music of Carolan played by modern musicians. Likewise, you've probably heard Baroque and Classical period music played by "original instruments" ensembles. Would the flute fit into such music? Sure. The whistle? Probably not, but recorders would likely have been played then. As for fifes, they would have been played by military units outdoors. There's a whole repertoire of fife and drum music from this period that resembles ITM in many ways, but it isn't ITM. Also, keep in mind that the British and their army were a major presence in Ireland throughout the 1700s. Ever wondered where Cornwallis ended up after he was defeated at Yorktown? He was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in 1798 and helped put down the Irish Rebellion in the so-called "Year of the French." My point, I guess, is that the history of ITM itself really can't be traced much further back than 1800, so trying to trace the history of instruments used in ITM back to an earlier time than that is probably a fruitless pursuit.

[jim stone]

Thank you, very interesting.

How old are the jigs, reels, hornpipes we play? I figured some of them
dated back to Carolan's day. Were they part of the classical
repertoire? I thought that in the 18th century probably there was 'music
of the peasantry' (to use O'Neill's term), often
used for dances, a sort of folk music, in which some of
the tunes we play today were played. That this tradition
existed alongside others, being influenced by them and
perhaps sometimes vice versa.

Generally the 'folk' play music, that is, there is an aural tradition
in which working people who aren't trained in reading or
classical techniques, pick up instruments and play tunes
that have been played by people like them before.

Was that there in Ireland in the 18th century? Were jigs
and reels, some of which are still with us,
part of it? If so, were flutes and whistles widely
played?

[Flutered]

I don't think Carolan is generally accepted of being typical of what represented Irish trad. music of his time. He after all, toured the wealthy families and played for their enjoyment and to earn a crust for himself. Hardly the sort of music the ordinary landless labourer or small tenant farmer was dancing to. As far as I know, it is thought that earlier forms of Irish music were songs and such and that these were often adapted to forms suitable for dancing.
Then the music was and is now an aural tradition.. what was written down is a more accurate reflection of the class status, influences and interests of the collectors of the time rather than necessarily what was typical. The Belfast Harpers meeting referred to by John above would likely also be skewed. After all, I doubt very much whether the harp was played in your average wee thatched cabin. It was surely an instrument associated with the wealthy and it's exponents would have reflected their tastes although I guess influenced by the 'music of the people'.
In 'A New History of Ireland' by Dáibhí Ó Cróinín, there is mention of 'flutes and flute fragments' being found in Dublin dating to 1200 AD, though these may have had a fipple.

[johnkerr]

How old are the jigs, reels, hornpipes we play? I figured some of themdated back to Carolan's day. Were they part of the classical repertoire? I thought that in the 18th century probably there was 'music of the peasantry' (to use O'Neill's term), often used for dances, a sort of folk music, in which some of the tunes we play today were played. That this tradition existed alongside others, being influenced by them and perhaps sometimes vice versa.

Generally the 'folk' play music, that is, there is an aural tradition in which working people who aren't trained in reading or classical techniques, pick up instruments and play tunes that have been played by people like them before.

Was that there in Ireland in the 18th century? Were jigs and reels, some of which are still with us, part of it? If so, were flutes and whistles widely
played?

Certainly there are individual jig, hornpipe and reel tunes that can be traced to the 18th century. Some of Carolan's pieces are in jig or hornpipe time, for instance, and there are songs that were sung in jig, reel or hornpipe time. But if you want to draw a distinction between 'folk' and 'classical' music in this time frame, you need to consider exactly who the 'folk' were then. Poor people, largely Catholic, carving out a meager existence on a diet of potatoes while living on land owned by and paying rent to rich people, mainly Protestant, largely with ties back to England. The rich had their own culture, as did the poor, and music was surely a leisure-time part of both cultures. But obviously any music made by the poor peasant folk would have had to have been made on the most rudimentary of instruments - which, yes, might have been whistles. But much of the music of that time was probably sung or lilted, rather than played on instruments. And surely the poor peasant folk would not have been averse to stealing melodies that they would have heard emanating out from the big houses. But if you want to consider Irish Traditional Music as a body of musical culture operating in parallel with another body of musical culture known as Classical Music, I don't think ITM as such existed during the 18th century. When you're poor and starving, music is not one of your highest priorities in life. When you're rich and living in the big house, there is room in your life for music to be a big part of it. The growth of ITM as a music has to parallel the growth toward independence and liberty of the Irish peasantry. That was a long struggle, and in the 18th century it had only just begun - despite the fact that the Irish had been working at it for several hundred years at that point.

[sbfluter]

I'm not an anthropologist or whatever you'd have to be, but it certainly seems to me that music is more commonly made by the lower classes and more commonly consumed by the upper classes. Music is typically part of class/social struggle, too. So if anyone was feeling oppressed it's likely there was music being made.

[jim stone]

Great stuff, much to think about.

Let me press, not in the spirit of competition, but to better
understand.

ITM, or proto-ITM, is up and running in the 19th century,
it seems, with instruments, jigs, reels, etc. But weren't
the 18th century economic conditions you aptly describe
still in place in Ireland in the 19th century,
as bad or worse? e.g. horrific famine, peasant farmers,
a largely British aristocracy.

IF that's so, the economics of the 18th century would
not preclude an active 'music of the peasantry.'

(Perhaps this is romanticism, but my impression
is that abject poverty doesn't stop folk music--
perhaps the only recreation available and desperately
needed. If there were harps there were fiddles...
Music is the last thing to go before we starve
to death.)

Obviously lots of people left Ireland in the 19th
century, rather than starve, but I take it instrumental
ITM flourished in Ireland.

[sbfluter]

And you cannot argue about the expense of instruments keeping the lower classes from making music either. Take a look at such instruments as the Tennessee Music Box or web sites like this http://www.ehhs.cmich.edu/~dhavlena/