The Flute Market : Supply & Demand

[Flutered]

Seems to me like there's a lot of flutes here for sale recently and getting 'bumped' by the day. I've been watching this forum for nearly two years and I've seen flutes come & go fairly regularly and usually apparently fairly promptly. So this phenonmemon seems fairly new.
Which brings me to wonder if there is not a bit of an oversupply of flutes building up, particularly in this 'small' C&F community. I mentioned the matter on another thread recently on 'too much choice' and Jim Stone opined that the demand was there but the money wasn't. I think that's just stating the same thing i.e. the reason people haven't got the cash is 'cos they've too many flutes.
So most folks here have more than one flute and many have several and there's only so many one can play. Sure it's nice to trade and try new flutes but if you can't sell them you can't get new ones.
Then we have seemingly a growing number of flute makers turning out flutes: just here in Ireland I can think of 8 well known makers offhand and there's probably the same again of people I don't know about. In the USA, it's probably ditto and there's a good few in the UK, continental Europe and Australia, leaving aside the Far East. Suppose there are 25 in total. How many keyless flutes for arguements sake would each small maker turn out in a year - I dunno but working them in batches, I would have thought 50 would be easy and still leave time for plenty of R&R. That could be 1250 new keyless flutes each year and most well built and well able to last a few generations being passed and sold on...
There are people taking up flute all the time but people leaving it behind as well and a portion of those instruments will find their way back into players hands and/or the market. My understanding is that in the 1800's, many simple system flutes were being turned out for general use but once the metal Boehm system flutes came along, these flutes found their way into trad. and folk musicans hands. A problem then arose in the 1970's after a surge of interest in trad. music because not enough old flutes were available. Hence a lot of new flute makers have set up to supply the market.
So are we approaching the same situation again? - are there lots of good quality flutes out there now looking for homes and flute makers looking at a diminishing business? What do you think? I would guess there will always be a market for rare and sought after flutes from the top makers but what about all the other instruments?
What would a flute maker do - put up their prices? concentrate on adding value by making keyed flutes? turn to making uilleann pipes or concertinas perhaps!!

[jim stone]

'I mentioned the matter on another thread recently on 'too much choice' and Jim Stone opined that the demand was there but the money wasn't. I think that's just stating the same thing i.e. the reason people haven't got the cash is 'cos they've too many flutes.'

I think there are quite a number of people who wish to 'move up'
to better flutes from beginners flutes or to keyed from unkeyed.
I'm corresponding with some of them. My impression is that
as many, or even more, people are entering the
flute-buying market as before. I think the reason
the money isn't there is that the economy is slow right now.

[cocusflute]

It certainly is an interesting question. Time will tell if the market is saturated. I don't think so.
At this point Wilkes has a ten year wait list for a keyed flute, Olwell five years, Hammy two-three years. Makers like Glenn Watson and Holmes-McNaughton have had their wait lists extended, as have other makers. Used flutes by these makers should sell for prices approximating new flutes or maybe a bit more.
There may be too many flutes for sale on the used market, but there's always a buyer for a really good one. Perhaps the dip in demand is occasioned by the dip in consumer spending across the board.

[peeplj]

I don't think the market is saturated.

I do think the U.S. economy right now is particularly bad, and that you are seeing that reflected on the board.

You gotta remember for every flute that you are seeing sold, there's somebody selling it who probably loves it and really wishes they didn't have to part with it.

--James

[Terry McGee]

Heh heh, an interesting fact to factor into this discussion is the revelation a few weeks back that membership of the flutemaking list at yahoogroups has just passed 1000. Supposing they all started to sell flutes ....

Terry

[Flutered]

I think there are quite a number of people who wish to 'move up'
to better flutes from beginners flutes or to keyed from unkeyed.

Yes Jim, but what they do with old flutes. Hang onto them for a while I guess but sooner or later they do a clearout and the flutes are looking for a new owner. So the instruments are either given away to an interested party or are on sale here and elsewhere.
We're not talking electrical consumer goods here which have a very short built in lifespan so that the markets can be churned. I presume most flute makers wish and intend that their flutes will last for decades at least! Or could that be wishful thinking

[Sillydill]

Flute Factor: Perhaps we should revise current economic theory to include a new indicie of economic health; the Flute Factor. When sales of good quality Irish Flutes are lackluster then this must be an indication that the economy is not healthy.

[peeplj]

Flute Factor: Perhaps we should revise current economic theory to include a new indicie of economic health; the Flute Factor. When sales of good quality Irish Flutes are lackluster then this must be an indication that the economy is not healthy.

Damn tootin!

--James

[Jayhawk]

So the instruments are either given away to an interested party...

Why does that never happen to me? I know of at least three people who have had good flutes thrust upon them for free. Not that I'm unhappy with my current flute, but still - it's a fairness kind of thing.

The economy really is painful for flute buyers here in the US, especially if you are considering buying a flute from outside the US. The exchange rates for both the euro and pound really favor overseas buyers. Mortgage and general loan default rates are at or near record levels, etc. Overall, just not much room for flute purchases for quite a lot of folks.

That said, and this will probably get me flamed, I do think that there are sufficient new flutes and flute makers on the market that the price of most used flutes is too high. Most items depreciate somewhat, yet we usually hope (me included) to sell our used flutes for new or close to new prices. Why? Sure we love them, but it's not like more will not be made (unless the maker has passed away). Dave Williams flutes, makers with multi-year waits, etc. - these seem to have some economic reason to sell for as new prices. Otherwise, when I'm looking for a used flute, I want to save money over a new one otherwise I'd just wait a few months and buy from the maker directly - after all, aren't they improving with each flute they make?

Fire away...(putting on flak jacket)

Eric

[sbfluter]

Seems there are two kinds of sellers. One will say something like "I've restored some nice flutes and am offering them for sale." The other will say something like "The money is tight right now and I hate to let this go." And there are a few "I don't play this anymore" types as well, who may be saying the same thing as "the money is tight" without saying so.

Most of the "money is tight" people seem to be here in the USA, where, indeed, money is tight for a lot of people these days. I think I would sell the TV and turn off the cable service, sell the boat, the jetski, the SUV and quit buying Starbucks before I'd let go of a really nice flute.

I am actually looking to buy, but I don't know what I want exactly. As a friend of mine said, a wooden flute will break your heart. It kills me to see all these nice flutes for sale. But do I want my heart broken again?

[jim stone]

'For nothing can be sole or whole
That has not first been rent...'

W.B. Yeats

Who said, to be Irish is to know the world
will break your heart?

[peeplj]

Most of the "money is tight" people seem to be here in the USA, where, indeed, money is tight for a lot of people these days. I think I would sell the TV and turn off the cable service, sell the boat, the jetski, the SUV and quit buying Starbucks before I'd let go of a really nice flute.

I am actually looking to buy, but I don't know what I want exactly. As a friend of mine said, a wooden flute will break your heart. It kills me to see all these nice flutes for sale. But do I want my heart broken again?

Well, TV's and cable are pretty much everywhere...but good luck on finding someone to buy a used TV.

I know two people with boats, both independently wealthy. I know one person with a jetski, who is also one of the boat owners.

SUVs are common but judging by the age of most of the folks I see driving them, a lot of SUVs are kids driving momma and daddy's money around town.

And Starbucks is actually pretty sucky coffee...there new motto ought to be "we shall leave no bean unburnt." You can do much better at home with a $10 grinder (that lasts forever), a $20 polycarb French press (that lasts forever), and a $4 bag of store-brand medium-roast Columbian Arabica, which lasts about a month. Not much of an investment really, for excellent coffee that will put Starbucks to shame.

That said....

My heart really goes out to people who have to sell flutes. Every instrument has its own personality and as you get to know them as an individual they are almost like a pet in some ways, and almost like a part of you in another. To sell one would leave me feeling like part of me was forever missing.

--James

[johnkerr]

Who said, to be Irish is to know the world
will break your heart?

The late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan (Hillary's predecessor in the seat from New York) was known to have said this. Whether he was quoting someone else when he did so, I don't know.

[Ronbo]

THIS TOO, WILL PASS.

Just about the time I decide to get a new flute.

[sbfluter]

Well, TV's and cable are pretty much everywhere...but good luck on finding someone to buy a used TV.

I would say the same thing, but I've seen two of them sell in the past week or so on an email list at work, plus a lot of other electronic junk I would think nobody would ever want.

I haven't seen any Irish flutes for sale yet on that same list, however.