STILL FOR SALE - assorted band Flutes & Piccolos

[jim stone]

Not so much shameless as persistent.
Here's a repeat of an earlier post of mine in this thread.

You wrote:
I also have some piccolos and Bb and F band flutes (“fifes”) ready to go, if anyone is interested. Just ask.
..............................................................

I asked:
Will you say something about these? Are they very loud?
ARe they in tune?
Are the pitched for the third/fourth octave?
Especially Bb and F. price?

What's a 'band flute'? Thanks

[jemtheflute]

Sorry Jim, I did promise an answer didn't I? Been trying to do too many things (including making a low D whistle head after writing Guido's review and tweaking his one..... - not bad, but need another go!!!!) and this wasn't up the priorities. Coming up!

Edit: here you go:-

BAND FLUTES & PICCOLOS FOR SALE

Basically, "band flutes" were/are designed for use in the context of brass/military/wind bands where the predominant tonality of the other instruments (brass, saxes, clarinets) is Bb/Eb. They are also the mainstay of the all-flute marching band, especially as found in the Ulster Loyalist tradition. Some regiments of the British Army also have or had flute bands. They are often called “fifes” (not unreasonably in that they replaced earlier forms of fife in military/pseudo military use), which leads to confusion as, unlike the standard American style fife, they have the form of the simple system post-Baroque flute with a cylindrical head and tapering conoid body with 6 open tone-holes and fitted with from 1-6 keyed holes. The most commonly found type are the high Bb, a third below the orchestral D piccolo, and the treble F a minor third above the concert D flute. Eb piccolos are not uncommon, and there are various lower pitched members of the family. It can be hard to decide whether some almost “concert” size flutes are High Pitch Ds or real Ebs…… The former are probably more common/likely to be found.

The Eb piccolos and Eb flutes were probably more for use in brass or wind bands than in all-flute contexts. It is (I understand) quite common for brass/mixed wind band music to require a “C#” flute and piccolo, (modern classical terminology - read a tone higher for our purposes!) or at least to have sheet music parts for both those and normal “C” (=D) instruments available. The one time I sat in with such a band (didn’t repeat the experience - my sight reading was never good enough!) they offered me the choice! You can still (if you search hard enough) buy modern Boehm Ebs (usually called Dbs or C#s) for such use.

The majority of such instruments that appear in junk shops, antique shops, car-boot sales or on eBay are at old British High Pitch - or one of its versions. As most of them don’t have tuning slides, they aren’t very tune-able either. Their intonation too is often dodgy. Many are rather cheap-and nasty in terms of original build quality, but there are some very good ones to be found and also some at A=440.

Here’s an extract from Bate quoted by Terry McGee (in a discussion on nomenclature) on Woodenflute a couple of years ago….

"As with some medieval instruments too, band-flutes are built in various pitches so as to form a homogeneous choir of voices. All are transposing instruments, the 'six-finger' note being invariably written as D. Traditionally however they are named after the actual sound of this D, and not the adjacent C as in orchestral practice. This custom sometimes causes confusion and many musicians and theoretical writers have called for its abolition. So far, however, the flute bandsman has remained adamant."

(Bate goes on to give the sizes - Eb pic, Bb flute, F flute, Eb flute, Bb bass, F bass, Eb bass.)

Another quote from Terry… “Military band flutes normally didn't have the foot extension to C (or whatever the equivalent note would have been, depending on key). When they did, they were concert flutes.”

-commented on by Craig Herrity thus: “It is certainly true most late 19th / early 20th C. band flutes were like that. But a significant proportion of the mid 19th century band flutes are 8 keys. My F flute is such and we used to see a lot of Eb 8 key flutes. I have even seen a high Bb flute with 8 keys. We are probably looking at the fault line between multi pitch flutes for standard military bands and thus for stand alone flute bands.”

Here is a picture of a complete set of probably late C19th Band Flutes - I believe they are Hawkes & Son Crown AZs, and they range from Bb bass (alto) to high F piccolo (for baby fingers only!). Note the rather French style keywork. What a gorgeous set! I believe they belong to David Quinn, Imperial Corps of Drums, Liverpool - I hope he/they won't mind me posting the pic!

N.B. THESE ARE NOT MINE AND ARE NOT FOR SALE!



There were some more useful bits to extract somewhere in my archives that would have saved me some typing/thinking covering old ground but I can’t find them/may have lost them from the computer (is one reason why I’ve put this job off!). Damn.
**********************************************************************************************

Here is a picture of the bunch I have available: from the top, they are:-

Anon. English 1-key F
Anon. English 1-key Bb
B.S. “London improved” "B" - English 1-key
Anon. English 4-key D piccolo
David “Breveté” French 5-key Eb piccolo
Anon. English 6-key Eb piccolo



As for the questions about their volume etc, here goes:

They are not especially or distinctively loud as a class, no more so than any flute. Piercing or shrill, able to cut through and carry because higher pitched, yes. That is why the high Bb and the piccolo are the quintessential marching band members of the flute family. In their lower registers they can be quite mellow and are no more susceptible of very forceful playing than concert flutes, allowing for build quality and playing expertise.

In tune? Well, of the ones I have in saleable condition (pictured above), the cocuswood 1-key F is high pitch at around A=445 and has a significantly flat fundamental, but otherwise a reasonable scale. The cocuswood 1-key Bb is a little sharp of A=445 - can just about be brought down by pulling out the joint about 3mm- and is tolerably well in tune with itself. It has a strong, sweet tone. The boxwood early type 1-key is labeled as “B” and is either high pitch Bb or B-ish at modern pitch, but it is crudely made and the scale is dreadful - it couldn’t really be played in any ensemble, and wouldn’t sound too good played solo or just with drums - though it would quite look (and sound?) the part for, say, Napoleonic era reconstructionalists. The four-key English D piccolo plays at A=440 with the slide open about 5mm and has quite good intonation (allowing that I am no piccolo specialist and that piccolos are very embouchure sensitive and bendable!). The 5-key French piccolo seems to be in Eb at A=440 with the slide open about 5mm and also to have decent intonation if one vents the Eb and F keys… it is sweet and powerful. Both these blackwood piccolos are nice quality instruments as is the little cocuswood 6-key English piccolo which is also Eb at A=440, though it goes slightly flat on the lowest notes.

NOTE: when I say the scale is “fair” or “reasonable”, I mean by C19th simple system flute norms, not modern ones, though I wouldn’t say it of the ones that will play at A=440 if I didn’t think they were usable.

Pitched for the 3rd & 4th octaves?????? Like any simple system flute, they mostly play well/readily through two octaves and about half way up the 3rd, to say G or A fingerings. Beyond that I would say they are reluctant, but I’m no expert at going there, so who knows what a piccolo specialist with a disciplined embouchure and developed technique would make of them? I wouldn’t have thought anyone plays piccolo into the (putative) 4th octave, not even charangistos, if they ever touch piccolos! Even in noisy outdoor marching band contexts, does anyone play Bb “fife” or piccolo to the top of the 3rd octave or beyond, and would anyone else want them to? (I realise you may be making reference to something I don’t know about here, Jim, with American marching bands/fife bands: if so, tell us about it.)

Prices - pitched to reflect what I paid for them plus what work I’ve done on them, allowing for them being ready to play, not fresh from the junk shop, but tempered by realism about their playability/desirability.....

F - £60.00: Cocus Bb - £50.00: Boxwood “B”, £50.00: English D piccolo, £75.00: French Eb piccolo, £75.00: English Eb Piccolo £65.00.

[jim stone]

Thank you

[jemtheflute]

Just an afterthought, Jim; when you asked about 3rd and 4th octaves, did you actually mean that in terms of the instruments' own compass, or in "concert flute" terms, counting from an actual pitch middle C - in other words, where the top, 3rd octave of a piccolo would equate to the 4th octave of a concert flute?

Also, a new and tasty pic added to my previous post!

[jim stone]

I know there are military fife's, shaped like blimps,
that are designed to play in the second, third and fourth (?)
octaves. They're weak in the first. This so that they
can be heard above the rockets red glare, the
bombs bursting in air, the shrieks of the dying,
and so on.

So I wondered if these were they. I see they are not.

Thanks again, Jim

[jemtheflute]

I have just had in a nice little 4-key F Flute - English or possibly German - plays at modern pitch. It needs a head crack fixed and general overhaul, but is playing quite nicely even in its present state. If anyone is specifically interested, I could prioritise sorting it out. PM me if interested.

[jemtheflute]

New sample clip for the German 1-key:- Paddy's Trip to Scotland/Dinky Dorian's/The Shetland Fiddler

[jemtheflute]

14:11:07 The German 8-key is now SOLD - Sale confirmed by 2nd triallist.

So, eventually this decent flute has found a new home in France and the purchaser is "a happy camper", enjoying (????) the challenge of transferring to a keyed flute from keyless!

The Seery and the 1-key German are still available, as are all the motley collection of non D flutes.

[Tirno]

"Enjoying"... I suppose I must be, but it has to be part masochism Who'd want keys?! Who wants to live in France and have to play tunes in C and Aminor?!

Aside from that, I heartily recommend Jem as an all round good bloke who gives excellent advice and off whom you can buy a second hand flute with confidence. (Of course, regular visitors to the board probably know that already)

Repadding and stuff is first class, embouchure is nice (I think a lot of flutes would be better from getting the embouchure adjusted, although Jem possibly undercuts them more than I'm used too - and, as the best makers say, different embouchures for diff'rent lips - or something).

[jemtheflute]

Thanks for the kind words, Greg.

BTW, I love A minor on flute! As well as nice ITM tunes in A min or related modes, some of the world's greatest flute music ever is in A minor, most notably the J.S. and C.P.E. Bach unaccompanied sonatas and one of C.P.E.'s brilliant concerti.

Bump to say the 1-key German is now also SOLD @ 22:11:07 and off to Holland.

Anyone want to relieve me of the Seery?

[boyd]

hi Jemtheflute

re the Cocus Bb, does it play in the 3rd octave? (crossfingered like a fife)

Just curious

Boyd

[boyd]

cross fingering 3rd octave fife:

D" E". F" . G" ..A"
O . X .. X .. X .. 0
X . X .. O .. O .. X
X . O ..X .. X ... O
X . O .. X .. O .. O
X . O ..X/0 .O .. X
X . O ..O .. O .. O

[jemtheflute]

hi Jemtheflute

re the Cocus Bb, does it play in the 3rd octave? (crossfingered like a fife)

Just curious

Boyd

Hi Boyd. See my lengthy answer to Jim Stone's Q above. It depends on what you mean by "fife" - as you're in N. Ireland I guess you probably mean "fife" as used in Marching Bands/Flute Bands - which actually use band flutes..... In colloquial terms all of these instruments could be called "fifes" but none is a true cylindrical bore fife - all have conoid, post-baroque style flute bores. I haven't experimented extensively with this particular instrument and I am not a "fife" and piccolo specialist, so my embouchure is not well trained to get the highest possible notes, but I'd expect it to sound readily enough up to the regular 3rd 8ve A fingering (oxx xxo) with the usual keyless/1-key flute 3rd octave fingerings. It's too late as I write this to go making squawky noises, but I'll try and check out what it does in the 3rd octave tomorrow (well, later today, actually - just got in from my local sesh).

[jemtheflute]

OK, it's daytime and I can make high pitched squeaky noises without fear of waking the neighbours. Yep, Boyd, those fingerings you gave work fine on this particular "fife". I take it you meant F#, not F natural? They're not quite the fingerings I'm familiar with from flute usage, though, nor, I think, as in-tune, though it's easy to bend them up there on such a small instrument. Are those kinda "standard" N. I. flute band fingerings?

Having experimented, I'd use as follows on this flute/fife from C nat at top of 2nd 8ve:

C : oxo xxo k
C#: oxx xoo k
D : oxx ooo k
Eb : oxx oxx k or oxx xxx k
E : xxo oxx k
F : xxo xxx
F# : xxx xox or xox xox ( is easier but sharp)
G : xox ooo or xox oox k
G#: oox oox k
A : oxx xxo
Bb : oxo xxo or oxo oxo
B : xxo xoo k

I can't get above that on it, thankfully!

[Kev]

FOR SALE - 1 Flute: keyless Seery Delrin Pratten style.. Is the Seey flute new or used?
Also available assorted Band Flutes/"Fifes" - see subsequent posts.

3 SOLD (Wooden keyless & German 1-key and 8-key)

NEW PHOTOS & CLIPS ADDED German 8-key 4:10:07. German 1-key 30:10:07.

I currently have the following second hand flutes available for sale. They are all in ready to play, excellent condition. I have not had time recently to do full detailed written descriptions and photo sets or sound samples for them as I have done previously. I’m working on it, but I need to try to shift them! In the meantime, if anyone is interested in one (or more) of them, I’ll try to answer any general or technical questions here, but please p.m. me for any other details, e.g. requests for specific pics/sounds or regarding terms and conditions of sale etc.
Personal Messages ONLY if you want to buy. (Board policy!) Thanks.

1. A Seery keyless Pratten style model in Delrin polymer, with original wooden, baize lined case. Pristine condition, little used. Grand player.


Asking price £305 GBP.



2.SOLD @ 5:10:2007 An anonymous modern keyless Pratten style flute in unknown dark hardwood (with interesting pale, swirly veining in the head), with leatherette, plush lined case.


Asking price £170 GBP.

Excellent condition. No cracks or dings. Fully lined head. Embouchure tweaked by me (was very large anyway, but lacked focus). Intonation is good, though slightly less so than the Seery, but if anything this one beats the Seery for power and tone. Bottom D was slightly sharp, but a little beeswax in the tone-hole cured that.

N.B. NEW PICS & CLIPS BELOW



3.SOLD @ 22:11:2007 An anonymous, probably late C19th, probably German, 1 key, medium holed flute in reddish-brown hardwood, possibly cocuswood. No case, but I can supply one at extra cost.


Asking price £170 GBP.

EDIT: New sound clip added @ 30:10:07 Paddy's Trip to Scotland/Dinky Dorian's/The Shetland Fiddler

Came to me from Canada. No marks save for “H.P.” stamped on the barrel and foot, but this is NOT a High Pitch flute. It plays well at A = 440Hz with the slide open about 10-15mm. The intonation is reasonable for a C19th flute (not too flat a low D but a tendency to sharpness around G and A in the second octave) and the tone is free and strong. This flute can rival the Seery for volume. Most of the baroque cross fingerings work quite well for accidentals, even in the bottom octave. Beautiful red hardwood, presumably cocus, with lovely grain. All metal parts are German Silver (cupro-nickel) or Brass. Fully lined head. The head and barrel were both split and have been stripped out, repaired and the lining tubes refitted after the bore was widened to admit them without stress. The head crack was not through the embouchure and is now scarcely discernible. I have judiciously modified the embouchure, which was rather scruffy. The cork stopper, pad and joint lapping (thread) are new. Fully cleaned and oiled. Typical German spun metal end cap, but cork adjusting mechanism missing. All repairs by myself. A very attractive little flute with a big sound - a real bargain in playability terms.


4.SOLD - Sale Confirmed @ 14:11:07 An anonymous, late C19th or early C20th, 8 key, small/medium holed flute in Cocuswood (I think, but could be Grenadilla/Blackwood), probably German. No case, but I can supply one at extra cost.


Asking price £320 GBP.

In superb condition - no cracks at all, one scratch near L1/C# tone hole, otherwise cosmetically excellent. No maker’s marks at all. Plays well at A=440 Hz with the slide open about 12mm. (“Sounding length” with slide closed 582mm.) Good intonation if proper vented simple system fingerings used. Plays full 3 octaves from low C readily with even sound. Strong, rich low register when you find the sweet spot, especially good low D. All metal parts are German Silver (cupro-nickel). Fully lined head, cork stopper with adjuster. Two part body (“Rudall style”) and separate foot. Pillar mounted keys, all fully functioning and well adjusted. Typical German spun metal end caps. Fully overhauled by me - cleaned, oiled, repadded, new cork lapping and buffers. Embouchure tweaked by me.
The ideal flute to introduce yourself to keys - the full kit on a stonking wooden flute for the same price as a keyless Seery! This is not a quiet flute - it holds its own fine in a session. It takes a little getting used to to find what it has to offer, but I’d compare it favourably with an Ormiston, for example, and at a quarter of the price for a fully keyed flute, and no wait!

(Edit @ 4:10:07) DEMO CLIP ADDED (incl. Scales, Reel: The Gooseberry Bush)


I’m willing to sell and despatch to most places worldwide - all costs thereof to be borne by the purchaser in addition to the quoted (or negotiated) price of the instrument(s) - again, p.m. me for details.

I also have some piccolos and Bb and F band flutes (“fifes”) ready to go, if anyone is interested. Just ask.

Interested parties, please p.m. me. Include your direct e-address and I’ll get back to you asap. Thanks.

Happy tootling………