Do Workshops *actually* Work?

[Tchie]

I agree with David, unfortunately, an excellent player does not ALWAYS an excellent teacher...

I for one, I have been attending the workshops taught by the breton great players like JM Veillon, Yannig Alory and Erwan Hamon. My case is quite different from others on the forum considering WE learn at each time, breton and Irish tunes and some compositions.

Of course, my purpose for participating these are to learn not only the tunes but also ornamentations, technics and history (Veillon is an expert for this) of the music. In addition, it is an excellent opportunity to get to know the musicians and the people whom we share some knowlege, style and the passion!

Here in Brittany, we work without the music score. Whatever the piece of music, the teacher plays one tune for about 3 times at the normal speed (and we record) then slower for several times. Then we learn the melody by parts.

For Irish tune, just because the some people do not quite familier with cut, tap etc so we revise/learn the technics and then we pass to their application on the tune. After, we go for the ornamentation.

For Breton, we go directly to the ornamentation knowing that generally the tune is much shorter and simpler than Irish. The techinic we apply here is evidently different from the time we play Irish one.

What I love from Hamon is, sometimes he offers the piece that we can do "ensemble" that we can exceed the limit that we all play exactly same tune at the same time as in session. Some workshop in Brettany gives the lesson where players of different musical instruments play ensemble.

We cannot exclude the joy of dancing the breton music at the end of the day of workshop.

What I had heard and I found disappointing of one workshop is that, the teacher gave the music scores in advance then we play exactly the samefor all the time. That cannot be happen here in Brittany...

[Cathy Wilde]

When I go to a workshop I'm inspired to come home and play more. So even if it just functions as a kick in the pants to get me playing more, I think that's a good thing.

[pancelticpiper]

I've taught a lot of workshops (mostly flute but also whistle and pipes) and attended a lot (various styles of fiddling, various kinds of flutes and bagpipes). When I teach, I begin with a core idea, then find tunes which serve as the best possible vehicle to convey that idea. That has changed over the years: 20 years ago I would focus on technique, the use of cuts and pats to articulate (rather than the tongue), and then the combining of cuts and pats to create short rolls, long rolls, and crans. More recently my focus has changed to try to convey the use of the breath and diaphragm to put rythm and life into tunes. Since you always get a wide range of experience and ability at workshops, I strive to aim at the middle (or where I guess the middle will be). For each bit that is taught, I have each person play it solo so that I can hear what they're doing, and can give a bit of one-on-one instruction. I always have everying I teach written out so that those comfortable with written music will have something to refer to later.
About workshops given by others, I also have experienced an amazingly wide array of effectiveness. The worst, perhaps, was given by a famous Irish fiddler mentioned above. He dragged in late, evidently stoned. He sat down in front of a roomful of fiddlers, who were hoping to glean something from the great Master. There was a long period of painful silence. Then, finally, someone asked a question, a very good, specific question about a particular technique. I knew exactly what the asker was getting at, for the famous fiddler used this technique often and very effectively. In reply, the Master looked quizzically at the asker, evidently not comprehending the question. Then the asker says, "You know, like you played on (such-and-such tune) on (such-and-such album)." I knew the tune, and knew the album. It was a good example for the asker to give. More quizzical stares from the Master. So, the asker puts his fiddle under his chin and begins playing the tune in question. Next began the most absurd scene, as the Master struggled to learn the tune from the asker, as if he had never heard it before. That going nowhere (as the Master did not seem to recall the tune in the least, even though he had recorded it fairly recently and had played it on tour hundreds of times), another period of strained silence insued. Eventually the Master suggests, "maybe we could play a few tunes". As he seemed unwilling to start any, another absurd scene followed, with the several Scottish-style fiddlers present blasting through their Scottish repertoire, the Master struggling to learn these on the fly. Thus ended the workshop.
Almost as bad was the workshop listed in the program as Breton Piping.
The French piper, who knew not a word of English, comes into the room, pulls out a set of Scottish Highland pipes, and proceeds for the next hour to play dozens of modern, recently composed Scottish pipe band competition tunes. Not a single Breton (or for that matter non-Scottish) tune did he play. As I compete in a Scottish pipe band, go to a lot of competitions, and buy CD's of the World Pipe Band Championships each year, I knew each and every tune he was playing. But it dawned on me that most of the people at the workshop, not having the same background, were under the impression that they were hearing Breton music. At the end of the "workshop" (which had no instruction whatsoever, and was merely a performance), I tried to explain to some of the people I was talking to that the guy was playing exclusively modern Scottish pipe band music. I'm not sure if they believed me.
Another disasterous workshop was given by a terrific musician who is a complete master of several instruments. This particular workshop was on Octave Mandolin. I have it on tape, and the absurdity of it wasn't fully apparent until I listened to the tape later. He spent around 10 minutes (of a one-hour workshop) and hundreds of words trying to explain what a triplet is. He evidently had no word like "triplet" in his vocabulary, and he struggled mightily to find a way to express this elusive concept in English (his native language). "You know, it's like when there are two notes, well, when there would usually be two notes, but now there's three notes, but not really three notes...." etc etc. He was the perfect example of a fantastic player who cannot analyse or explain his own playing and is utterly incapable of expressing any musical concept verbally.
Yet another bad workshop was one taught by a leading uilleann piper. The Master sat down, surrounded by eager uilleann tyros, pipes in their laps. Not a note did the Master play, nor did he have anyone else play a note. Without knowing anyone's ability level, he proceeded to give a one-hour lecture on how most people who try to learn uilleann pipes are doing it all wrong, how they should play simple tunes very slowly and in strict metronomic rythm for a long time until they have completely mastered them, before attempting jigs or reels. While this was sage advice indeed, I think it could have been addressed in five minutes, and the remaining time could have been spent assessing people's level, offering suggestions, teaching technique, etc.
I too attended a Frankie Kennedy workshop and it was great. He taught a simple but nice and rare tune (I've not heard anyone else ever play it).

[jim stone]

Most of the workshops I've attended go somewhat over
my head. They've all been good. and the quantity of
info presented overwhelms me somewhat. If there
are tunes taught, after a point I can't keep up.
But they've all been helpful, inspiring experiences,
from which I learned a lot about music and
technique. My playing has always improved
significantly after a workshop.

I did a couple of whistle workshops with Grey Larsen
and learned a lot about ornamentation, how to
do it, what it's for, and when to use it.

John S. taught a great deal about how to approach
the playing of Irish music, and also I learned more
about ornamentation.

Just watching M.
Rafferty address the flute was something of a
revelation. Tunes and stories was all, but I
came out of that much improved. Felt like I had
for a couple of hours been a wee Irish lad playing
tunes with his grandfather.

I reckon a good deal of learning is by osmosis.

[talasiga]

Mr Stone,
You really need to do a workshop on how to layout your posts. In just about every post of yours, your layout insinuates a poem and ends up being quite quite disappointing because your posts are in fact quite quite prosaic. May I remind you that you are not at a typewriter now and there is no need to manually press "enter" when you think you have come to the end of the line.

[Wormdiet]

Mr Stone,
You really need to do a workshop on how to layout your posts. In just about every post of yours, your layout insinuates a poem and ends up being quite quite disappointing because your posts are in fact quite quite prosaic. May I remind you that you are not at a typewriter now and there is no need to manually press "enter" when you think you have come to the end of the line.

Have a lot of time on your hands today?

[anniemcu]

I have only attended a few (whistle), but have gained a great deal from each - even the one that I couldn't do anything *in* sent me home with a lot of things to think about and grow from, and so helped me a lot.

Luckily, the leaders of the workshops were not just top notch players, but good teachers as well.

[talasiga]

Have a lot of time on your hands today?

I am not well today. Recovering from a flu and I have a cold sore on my lip and cannot flute or whistle. Lucky for me, my immune response is good and my body clears cold sores up within three days.

Now, I have tolerated Jim's sendup of the layout of my posts for some years now but today it was just too much.

JIM! Fix your layout, you layabout!

[jemtheflute]

I too attended a Frankie Kennedy workshop and it was great. He taught a simple but nice and rare tune (I've not heard anyone else ever play it).

I think this, combined with my less fortunate experience, makes a good point. Even the good 'uns can have an off day!

I seem to recall (it was a long time ago) that on the occasion I was at there was some dispute between the festival organisers and the members of Altan as to what they had been contracted to do - sure can't have helped. I certainly didn't mean to imply I assumed that Frankie couldn't be a good teacher/workshop leader. Nonetheless, and without thinking of specific individuals, some great artists (or indeed experts in any field) are also great teachers and communicators, others are not. Many fine, inspiring, effective teachers are not the most gifted performers. I love Pan's story about the stoned fiddler - though I'm sure it was a bizarre, sad and frustrating experience if you were a punter expecting value for money and an idol to look up to!

[jim stone]

Have a lot of time on your hands today?

I am not well today. Recovering from a flu and I have a cold sore on my lip and cannot flute or whistle. Lucky for me, my immune response is good and my body clears cold sores up within three days.

Now, I have tolerated Jim's sendup of the layout of my posts for some years now but today it was just too much.

JIM! Fix your layout, you layabout!

The problem is that, when I write a long line,
I forget what I said at the beginning.
It's a cognitive defect, I think, or maybe I'm
just too much in the moment. Anyhow, this
way I can just look up and see what I'm
writing about.

I don't recall ever saying anything about the
layout of your posts. If I did, my apologies
Your posts are fine with me.

Hope you feel better, Jim

[Guinness]

I agree, much of it has to do with the inspirational value.

I'm a bit of a groupie so if I can meet one of my musical heroes, I'm there.

[pancelticpiper]

Actually Mr Stone's last post DOES work pretty well as poetry.

[jim stone]

Thank you. Very kind.

Now to return to the thread, which isn't about me.

[seisflutes]

Yet another bad workshop was one taught by a leading uilleann piper. The Master sat down, surrounded by eager uilleann tyros, pipes in their laps. Not a note did the Master play, nor did he have anyone else play a note. Without knowing anyone's ability level, he proceeded to give a one-hour lecture on how most people who try to learn uilleann pipes are doing it all wrong, how they should play simple tunes very slowly and in strict metronomic rythm for a long time until they have completely mastered them, before attempting jigs or reels. While this was sage advice indeed, I think it could have been addressed in five minutes, and the remaining time could have been spent assessing people's level, offering suggestions, teaching technique, etc.

Oh, that sounds SO familiar. I could have been there. Or I was definitely in a similar workshop once. It was painfully dull.

[Cathy Wilde]

I still laugh at the day-long fiddle workshop Larry attended once with Kevin Burke where Mr. Burke wouldn't let a single person play a note until about the last half-hour of the day -- his opening statement was something along the lines of "Nobody play ANYTHING. I can't stand the sound of a bunch of fiddles."

Larry did get a few things out of the class, though, not the least of which was a good story!