the environment

[josh perkins]

So, I was reading Mike Cronnolly's website the other day and came across all this stuff (read:links to articles in Scientific American) about PVC and how material doesn't matter in woodwinds, etc. Leaving aside for a moment the highly subjective question of tone quality, he also posits that using PVC for instrument manufacture is more environmentally friendly than using wood--specifically tropical hardwoods. After reading the arguments supporting this case, I can't quite bring myself to believe that using plastic is a better idea, environmentally, than using wood. Anyone have any real strong evidence either way?

J

[pipersgrip]

wood does matter very much, boxwood is brighter, african blackwood had that good dark rich sound. you can tell the difference between a metal, wood, and plastic/pvc flute. or whistle even.

[Steamwalker]

I don't imagine musical instruments use all that much wood or plastic. There has been the similar age old debate about what harms the environment more: paper or plastic bags you get from the store. In those cases, I am sure a lot more plastic and wood is used to produce those and they are often used once and discarded. A good flute/whistle/pipe should hopefully last centuries.

[sbhikes]

I have very strong evidence against plastic.

http://www.algalita.org/
http://www.cawrecycles.org/issues/plastic_campaign

[Gordon]

Most flute makers are generally aware, for practical, financial and environmental reasons, that the proper compromise is to use woods from trees that are not threatened, and/or do not deplete or endanger any particular area. Among other reasons, they'd be killing the golden goose, so to speak. This in mind, they also seem, as a group in general, in a continuous search for better and more economic hardwoods -- which, by default -- are more available. Given that plastics generate all sorts of poisons in their making, it seems to me that the best choice is still wood, with an eye toward renewable trees, not exotics that may not see another generation. If locals in places like Africa can be convinced that it's more economically feasible to preserve their forests then to slash-and-burn for cattle, we'd have enough flutes and a sound environment at the same time. Of course, most things, sadly, are more complicated than this, but its a good mindset, to start...
Gordon

[rama]

i don't think the study in that article proves material does not matter. i believe it proves, under a given and very specific set of conditions, a possibility exists that 2 flutes of different materials can sound alike. a difference in conclusions. i'm probably wrong, i'm not a scientist, just someone whose bored and has a little time to think about it. it's sorta like saying you can walk in concrete shoes and performance running shoes so therefore they're identical. (you can swim in them too, just try it yerself).

i think a valid study would need to push the envelope between flutes of differing material across the widest possible spectrum of sound, to determine that there is no difference at all in the sound cerated between materials.

[Jayhawk]

sbhikes - Michael's flutes are PVC not plastic, and PVC is generally made to last and not be discarded like the trash plastics found in your links. I do think there is a difference. Now whether or not it's manufacture is better for the environment than cutting down trees is quite obviously debatable.

TWC - you're the very first person I've ever heard describe boxwood as brighter than blackwood. I've heard rosewood called brighter, but boxwood I think more folks describe as softer and buttery (some add yum afterwards as well). One thing reading what people think of flute materials I've found is that no one agrees exactly what difference each wood makes.

Personally, I think flute design, including all those minuscule variances that come with handmade items, make more of a difference than the material the flute is made of...and I think the player makes more of a difference than design, the individuality of each piece, and the material combined. I'm not saying the material doesn't matter at all, but it's probably the low difference on the totem pole.

So, as to the original question...I'm sure the manufacture of PVC has nasty environmental effects...so does deforestation in African even if the species, like blackwood, is in no way endangered. Take Lake Tanganyika for example, the hillsides around it have been deforested (of blackwood I believe) has led to erosion running off into the lake and decreasing the fish stocks the locals have long used for their survival. Jane Goodall (what doesn't she do that's good) is working to increase plantings around the lake (this impacts the Gombe area significantly), but it will take years to fix if it ever is fixed.

So it's all bad. There's far too many of us destroying the planet in varying ways, and just buy whatever flute you like.

Eric

[Casey Burns]

I doubt if the little bit of wood us flute makers use makes that much of a difference to the environment. I did a calculation recently and figured that in 26 years I've produced maybe 3000 pounds of flutes. That doesn't really amount to that many trees, or impact to the environment at large. There are other factors such as the electricity I use to run my tools, lighting and heat in the winter. On the other hand my workshop is about 75 feet away from my house so I am not spending hours commuting in a car to get to work every day.

My wood choices have more do do with my own work environment. I tend to avoid woods that are toxic like Cocus and Cocobola - in fact the latter and most other Rosewoods give me rashes similar to poison oak. I have to be careful with blackwood these days for that reason. I sneeze violently when exposed to ebony dust and so I have stopped using it. Boxwood and Mopane are to me relatively nonreactive. Even so I use some dust control. The plastics I have tried tend give off unpleasant chemical smells that I would rather not expose myself to and so I have avoided them, even the polyester resin based alternative ivories made by GPS.

My wood choices are also based on what I can find via local wood suppliers so I can hand pick if possible. I am fortunate that one has most of the species I use and a bunch more to try. If there are local species that work acoustically I try and use these. Mountain Mahogany is one such species - unfortunately nobody is cutting any, except for firewood.

The amount of material in a flute wood or otherwise is insignificant when weighed against the other environmental aspects of our lives. Commuting, buying food that is shipped from thousands of miles away, driving a Suburban rather than a Prius (we have a Corolla which gets 38mpg), and other consumer choices etc. will have a more dramatic effect.

Casey

[Steamwalker]

sbhikes - Michael's flutes are PVC not plastic, and PVC is generally made to last and not be discarded like the trash plastics found in your links. I do think there is a difference. Now whether or not it's manufacture is better for the environment than cutting down trees is quite obviously debatable.

Quick note, PVC is a plastic, in fact it is one of the more commonforms.

[sbhikes]

The manufacturing of any kind of plastic poses the greatest threat. The plastic nurdles used as the raw material for making plastic products of all kinds is frequently spilled on land and at sea where it exists forever in the environment, even as it is eaten by creatures that mistake the nurdles for food. The animals die but the plastic remains.

Plastic NEVER breaks down. Biodegredation of plastic cannot happen. There is nothing that can eat plastic and break it down into smaller nutrients. Through photodegradation it breaks into smaller pieces, but these pieces are still plastic. These ever smaller bits of plastic are then ingested or otherwise incorporated into the flesh of smaller and smaller creatures.

Nobody knows what the biological effects of microscopic organisms consuming plastic will be to the larger food chain, but one possible effect is the accumulation of chemicals which mimic estrogen and thus render many kinds of creatures, including humans, unable to reproduce. These chemicals leach from the plastic and it takes parts per trillion levels to affect an organism.

The center of the Pacific Gyre contains by weight 6 times more plastic than plankton. Plastic will kill us more certainly than global warming will.

All that said, I would think that a well-made flute of plastic is less harmful to the environment than the plastic cups and bags we all consume regularly. But more harmful than a flute made of wood or metal.

[Unseen122]

For the topic of tone quality you should look at this thread which proves that the tone is heard more by the player than the listener, and that the material is not as important as some of us say it is.

As for the enviromentaly consious Flute buyer, you can go and get a flute made out of the finest wood that is the most enviromentaly safe as it grows fast and is availble in large numbers and so on. So the tree you killed is replacable and no creatures have to die for it. Then what does the damn maker do? Send you a plastic case for the Flute, unless it is a cloth pouch you can't avoid a case with no plastics involved in its making. So you have a Flute that doesn't hurt anybody but the case is reaking havoc on the enviroment because it is a big piece of plastic that left pounds of nurdles in the ocean. So what can you do? Play the hell out of the Flute anyway, unless you are worried about the carbon dioxide leaving your body to heat up the world and melt the polar ice caps. My point is it is almost impossible to not hurt the enviroment these days, unless you live in a shack in the woods with no running water or electricty, Flute playing should not be something to worry about. Yes, you can make an effort to help the enviroment, but taking this idea and appling it to what material a Flute is made out of is just pointless. Your choice of Flute should not be based on how many trees it does or doesn't kill but what type of Flute suits your playing and budget the best way, because even if it is a big hunk o' plastic I bet the cases I use for my wooden flutes put even more nurdles in the ocean.

Peace I'm outta here.

[rama]

For the topic of tone quality you should look at this thread which proves that the tone is heard more by the player than the listener, and that the material is not as important as some of us say it is.

Peace I'm outta here.

no, i still say it can only prove that 2 flutes can, under certain conditions, sound similar to a listener (although the tone did change from start to finish in the clip from the thread, esp. the first low d and last low d.). just as one can walk in concrete shoes or performance running shoes, get from point a to point b, while an observer of only the upper torso of the person walking might see it all the same (because the intent is to make it look the same). but try running a sprint.
hey, go ahead and order a concrete flute. mcchud's rock.

[Jon C.]

hey, go ahead and order a concrete flute. mcchud's rock.

I still have one on order from Jack... Maybe he's trying to figure out how to ship the concrete flute? As it is so heavy...

[Flutered]

I doubt if the little bit of wood us flute makers use makes that much of a difference to the environment. I did a calculation recently and figured that in 26 years I've produced maybe 3000 pounds of flutes. That doesn't really amount to that many trees, or impact to the environment at large. Casey

Curious about this, because I presume only the best 'cuts' so to speak are used for musical instruments. I've seen pics. of Blackwood logs in the rough and they're full of shakes and splits. So a good deal must be discarded to get the useable portions??? Factor that in and would the amount used be more?

That said, a good wood flute will hopefully last for many many years and give lots of pleasure to both musician and listeners. In the greater scheme of things, that seems a good deal.

[Casey Burns]

That may be true as far as modern clarinets are concerned. Buffet Crampon or one of the other Parisian clarinet manufacturers used to save all of their discard black wood and use it to fire up their boilers until my wood supplier bought up these scraps, several of which got turned into instrument parts. Now they grind such wood up into a powder and mix it with resin for their higher end plastic instruments.

From my own experience of rendering flutes from the log, I'd say maybe this doubles the amount of wood I have actually used. My scraps end up in the woodstove and the sawdust as mulch, as long as there are no metal particles in it.

I still think the environmental costs are insignificant weighed against other things, such as transportation, lifestyle, etc. Also consider how many times an item such as a flute gets reused over time. I suspect people will be discussing which flutes are best including the same names and possibly the same flutes discussed here several decades if not centuries into the future.

Casey