the environment

[Martin Milner]

sbhikes - Michael's flutes are PVC not plastic, and PVC is generally made to last and not be discarded like the trash plastics found in your links.
Eric

I'm intrigued, Eric, what do you think PVC is if it isn't plastic?

[Jayhawk]

sbhikes - Michael's flutes are PVC not plastic, and PVC is generally made to last and not be discarded like the trash plastics found in your links.
Eric

I'm intrigued, Eric, what do you think PVC is if it isn't plastic?

What I meant to type, and didn't (that's what I get for typing and running off without checking what I wrote) was simply that PVC is not common plastic - the sort made to be thrown away after one use. sbhikes links appeared to be dealing more with cheap plastic being dumped (and not recycled I might add) than with plastics that are made to last and work a very long time - I see a legitimate use for such permanent plastics as opposed to disposable plastics.

As for wooden flutes, they're not made of fast growing trees - they're made of dense trees that take a significant amount of time to grow to a size to make flutes. Deforestation in Africa is a huge issue - most of that is for firewood and furniture, but it's destroying rivers, lakes, and the carbon sink the trees represent as well as greatly imperilling countless species of animals and plants.

I am most definitely not saying PVC and delrin manufacturing is better for the environment than mass harvesting lumbar, but you're deluding yourself if you don't realize harvesting lumbar in tropical countries is harming the environment.

I also agree with Casey that the amount of wood used for flutes is neglible and probably has no significant environmental impact. Conversely, I can argue the amount of PVC and delrin made for flutes is neglible and has little impact on the environment. The impact for both comes from the large scale manufacture of delrin and PVC for other uses and the mass harvesting of old hardwood lumbar for other uses.

Eric

[River Otter]

The manufacturing of any kind of plastic poses the greatest threat. The plastic nurdles used as the raw material for making plastic products of all kinds is frequently spilled on land and at sea where it exists forever in the environment, even as it is eaten by creatures that mistake the nurdles for food. The animals die but the plastic remains.

The plastic nurdles are a byproduct of oil refinery and would be created whether or not we make trash bags, lawn furniture, and flutes out of them. At least so long as we are refining oil. That's why your big name manufacturers of common industrial thermoplastics such as high density polyethylene are companies like Phillips, Chevron, etc. Throwing them away would be a much greater waste than using them. I'm all for reducing or eliminating our dependence on oil, but for the time being it's a fact of life.

Plastic NEVER breaks down. Biodegredation of plastic cannot happen.

Not quite true. Many plastics will break down over time with exposure to UV radiation. Anyone who has left a plastic tarp over their woodpile for a year or more will recognize this. It becomes brittle and crumbles. Granted, plastic crumblies in the soil is probably less desirable than an intact tarp, but it does degrade eventually. I will agree that it takes a VERY long time and most discarded plastics are not constantly exposed to sunlight. There are advantages and disadvantages to the use of plastics just as there are advantages and disadvantages to wood. The most environmentally harmful thing on the planet is people and I'm convinced that won't change until we stop making so many of them.

[GaryKelly]

I read somewhere on the web that every person who subscribes to a daily newspaper is responsible for the loss to the planet of at least three trees every year. I don't think that includes Sunday papers and their 30lbs of naff colour supplements. That's a lot of trees in the bin every day.

[sbhikes]

We had a similar discussion about woods recently and personally I would be tickled to have a flute made of olive or pistachio wood rather than blackwood. These trees are crops and so the effect on the environment would be related to the production of their crops and not to the harvesting of old-growth trees.

[Jayhawk]

We had a similar discussion about woods recently and personally I would be tickled to have a flute made of olive or pistachio wood rather than blackwood. These trees are crops and so the effect on the environment would be related to the production of their crops and not to the harvesting of old-growth trees.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I love the look of olivewood...and it smells nice, too. Using woods that are already being mass propigated and have additional uses is a great practice. I have a nice wooden table and chair set made from rubber trees which are now being used for furniture instead of being dumped once their rubber producing life is over. It's a really heavy piece of furniture...but I have no clue if it's SG and finish would make a good flute. I do know it makes a fine dinning room set!

Eric

Eric

[Gordon]

We had a similar discussion about woods recently and personally I would be tickled to have a flute made of olive or pistachio wood rather than blackwood. These trees are crops and so the effect on the environment would be related to the production of their crops and not to the harvesting of old-growth trees.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I love the look of olivewood...and it smells nice, too. Using woods that are already being mass propigated and have additional uses is a great practice. I have a nice wooden table and chair set made from rubber trees which are now being used for furniture instead of being dumped once their rubber producing life is over. It's a really heavy piece of furniture...but I have no clue if it's SG and finish would make a good flute. I do know it makes a fine dinning room set!

Eric

Eric

I suppose this is what I was thinking when I was suggested new, usable hardwoods -- woods that are not part of some fragile ecosystem, but rather a fairly common forest tree. Unfortunately, I believe most flute-friendly hardwoods are from very slow-growing -- and therefore hard to simply replant -- trees. Some Baroque flute makers have used impregnated hardwoods like maple to good effect -- I'd be curious what a flute made from such a "common" wood might be like in the hands of, say, an Olwell, or the like. I thought Casey was working with some other less-common (for flute) woods -- Casey?
Gordon

[Jayhawk]

Gordon - I've heard a couple of good players make common Sweetheart flutes (the Pratten derived ones - one made of maple and the other apple) sound fantastic. I believe he impregnates them with Tung oil.

I think Sweetheart flutes too often get a bad rap not because of inconsistencies (the one's I've played have been very consistent) but because of the level of player who tends to buy them...and they're not small bore, small hole flutes - they're very prattenesque and remarkably similar to a Seery so they're really not the easiest flute for a complete novice to start out on, especially without a teacher.

As for Olwell, I know one board member (care to chime in Loren?) has a dogwood Olwell which is supposedly a very good flute.

Eric

[Casey Burns]

There are probably several species of woods that work that could be gotten domestically. Within a mile of me here NW of Seattle I can name a few: Oregon Crabapple, Black Locust, Honey Locust, various fruit trees (plum, apple, hawthorne, persimmon, almond - I have one growing in my yard), dogwood. To the south of me in Oregon, more fruit woods including peach and apricot, 2 species of Mountain Mahogany, Manzanita. Then in California, Olive and Pistachio. Farther afield are woods such as Desert Ironwood, Kentucky Coffee etc. There are certainly resins and treatments to make woods that seem too porous useable, such as wax impregnation, tung oil sealers etc. I am not set up for the former and I react to the latter unfortunately.

The woods are almost besides the point - its a matter of what is available and practical from a supply and demand standpoint. Everyone wants the best wood for the best flute possible which usually defaults to blackwood (I can't use cocus) and it took years to get market acceptance for Mopane, which initially was an inexpensive alternative. I discovered Mopane at a point in the 90s when it looked like blackwood was going to become impossible to find, tested it and found it to work well and then worked hard to promote it. Now the situation is reversed and I may end up making Folk Flutes from blackwood rather than Mopane someday!

I could go out and get some of my own woods and I know a few makers who do that. Its hard and dangerous work involving permits, chain saws and some sort of way of resawing lumber, then years of seasoning. I prefer to leave this hard work to others who do it well. My time has been better spent making flutes instead so I am at the mercy of the wood suppliers and what my clients desire.

Casey

[sbhikes]

This is probably a silly question, but couldn't wood be stained to be black like blackwood?

[Jon C.]

This is probably a silly question, but couldn't wood be stained to be black like blackwood?

The Blackwood's quality is not in it's color, which some think boring, rather it is the hardness, density and the oil level of the wood, that makes it appealing as a tone wood. It is possible to fume other woods to give it the Blackwood look. You find some antique flutes, where they stained boxwood, (which was a cheaper lumber back then) to look like Cocuswood.

[pflipp]

Just digging up this old thread to ask a question.

Monday is the start of my instrument making course. Since this will be essentially a woodshop class, I should expect to build my flute out of wood, not artitificial materials. Now we have seen a lot of arguments in this thread as to why and how much any material would hurt the environment. With that as a given, I am wondering what kind of wood would be the most environmentally friendly, within the categories given below:

- Very light (density up to ~600 kg/m3, if at all recommended for flutemaking)
- Light (density ~600-800 kg/m3, like recorder-/ fruitwoods)
- Medium (density ~800-1000 kg/m3, like boxwood)
- Hard (density ~1000 or more kg/m3, like blackwood)

Taking into account all aspects such as being endangered, causing general deforestation, etc. And shipping; I live in the Netherlands.

[hans]

Most environmentally friendly is probably a locally sourced fruit wood, cut down as firewood, like an old plum tree. You got those in the Netherlands, and perhaps in cycling distance. Still leaves you with the problem of seasoning for many years, unless you try a green wood flute and don't mind the later distortions.

[tin tin]

The most environmentally sustainable flute material is probably bamboo, since so it's renewable and fast-growing, and little is discarded (doesn't even need to be hollowed out!).

[hans]

The most environmentally sustainable flute material is probably bamboo, since so it's renewable and fast-growing, and little is discarded (doesn't even need to be hollowed out!).

But it does not grow in the Netherlands to the desired sizes for flutes, so it need to be shipped half around the globe. That adds environmental costs.