Shall we resume saying how long we've been playing?

[G1]

Through an extended study, I have discovered an unquestionable link between music and human speech - particularly as an innate form of communication which is bilaterally universal. No matter where I go, whenever I begin to play people have an irresistible urge to start talking. Shaddup you!

[talasiga]

.....Still, I think it's more useful to regard language and music as parallel but autonomous systems with their own independent structure and complexity, and to regard terms such as "accent" as a matter of terminological convenience and an appeal to the familiar, rather than as expressing deep underlying homologues.
.......

Yes, otherwise one would be hard put to explain how the traditional art music of the northern part of the Indian sub continent has not been subject of internascent (correction: internecine) aesthetic warfare on account of the several languages that are found there as well as the several dialects of each of those several languages. It is true there are several styles in that tradition, but the differences in style are not language, ethnic or religious based.

This may undermine my overall agreement with MT but I feel that the main element among the Indo-European languages that could affect musical sensibility at some level is the differences between the accent stressed and the metrically stressed languages. For instance, the Celtic and Germanic languages are accentually stressed whereas the Romance, Greek and Indic languages are metrically stressed.

Interestingly one of the the non Indo-Euro sourced traditions to have influenced American folk is from Africa where accent stressed languages predominate.

[Rob Sharer]

Lads, lads, LADS! Get over yourselves! This is the flute forum, not the Waffle House. If it can't be stated simply, it's probably not worth saying.

[MTGuru]

Lads, lads, LADS! Get over yourselves! This is the flute forum, not the Waffle House. If it can't be stated simply, it's probably not worth saying.

Yeah, sorry, I do let the language get away from me sometimes, don't I.

But there is a real linguistics vocabulary for talking about real linguistics, and we agree the relationship between music and language is interesting. Even if it may have taken this thread down the rocky road and over a cliff.

Waffle House ... jeez, that brings back memories of all-nighters in grad school. More coffee, please ...

[mcdafydd]

It seems like most of what needs to have been said about this topic has been said, but I thought it pertinent to throw out an article and video to help solidify the non-exclusive bind between language and music in the brain:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.j ... ain216.xml

[MTGuru]

I hate to see a venerable thread die an ignominious death. So He Who Locked It has given the OK to roll it back a few posts and bring it back to life.

See the "Zombie update" thread in the Pub for background information.

Zombies think that arguing about vocabulary is silly, and they'll eat our brains if we don't play nice. I'll try. Thanks.

[cocusflute]

And all this has had what to do with how long a person has been playing?
Analise that syntax.

[mahanpots]

I've been playing Irish flute for about 15 years. Occasionally, I've gotten together with other musicians when my ego forgets to rule and the music takes over and I fall love with the moment, but most of the time I'm thinking too much about me to be bothered with the source of all this music.

Michael

[talasiga]

.......
But there is a real linguistics vocabulary for talking about real linguistics, and we agree the relationship between music and language is interesting. Even if it may have taken this thread down the rocky road and over a cliff.

...

Well it was a question about musical authenticity that started the recent bout of it at page 14 of this topic namely, with peeplj's thoughtful and sincere response to JS, followed by some hefty paragraphs by Rob Sharer and a line of posts including Ronbo and Jemtheflute etc. All interesting reading.

A topic about how long we've been playing musts raise the spectre of the comparative viability of quantative and qualitative reckonings. Issues of authenticity, of type or style of music (and the differences in demands of playing it) and the like go toward the latter reckoning.

Bare quantative statements about how long we have been playing would make an obscenely boring and fruitless topic. People raised the qualitative element and that is a good reality check. The arguable relationship of language and music is part and parcel of it.

Remember, no matter how long we may have been playing flute, we have been talking much longer. And before we talked we fluted with baby voices.

[Gordon]

How long we've been playing - presumably the flute - is such a loaded question it really has no shelf life - the "off-topic" rambles are exactly what's kept this thread going. That we all progress at different speeds is one inherent flaw in the question, while another is that many of us play some, or many, instruments other than the flute.

How musically wired our brains are before the flute, how rhythmically aware, how well we listen to music in general - all this makes a difference when asked how long we've played - a groundwork before learning all the necessary techniques unique to the flute. This said, there are also gifted players who simply get it early on, and their few years on the flute will outshine many who have played far longer.

In other words, how long a person played tells us nothing.

I'm personally not convinced that linguistics and music have much to do with one another, but I can understand why many find the topic interesting. I have no problem if some want to carry it on, and use big or little words to do so.

[peeplj]

Gordon, great post.

How musically wired our brains are before the flute, how rhythmically aware, how well we listen to music in general - all this makes a difference when asked how long we've played - a groundwork before learning all the necessary techniques unique to the flute. This said, there are also gifted players who simply get it early on, and their few years on the flute will outshine many who have played far longer.

In other words, how long a person played tells us nothing.

That pretty much sums it up.

Also, the ability to play well and the ability to teach well are two different skills; having one by no means insures you have the other.

--James

[Nanohedron]

How long we've been playing - presumably the flute - is such a loaded question it really has no shelf life - the "off-topic" rambles are exactly what's kept this thread going. That we all progress at different speeds is one inherent flaw in the question, while another is that many of us play some, or many, instruments other than the flute.

How musically wired our brains are before the flute, how rhythmically aware, how well we listen to music in general - all this makes a difference when asked how long we've played - a groundwork before learning all the necessary techniques unique to the flute. This said, there are also gifted players who simply get it early on, and their few years on the flute will outshine many who have played far longer.

In other words, how long a person played tells us nothing.

This is spot-on. Time spent doesn't even confer reliable authority, necessarily. I've seen it pan out that way.

I do think one should show some respect to long-time players just on general principles, though. That's just good manners.

[Akiba]

I do think that Cocus' original statement regarding posting clips of one's playing still may be the best way of estabilishing credibility; clips certainly tell more about a player than the number of years spent playing. Of course, this is art which is by nature subjective so nothing is definitive. But I will certainly listen a lot more closely to someone who plays the way I want to play or admire or at minimum comprehend. If you want what someone has, do what they do. Hearing a clip of someone's playing let's me make a more informed decision in that regard.

Jason

[cocusflute]

peeplj said:

the ability to play well and the ability to teach well are two different skills; having one by no means insures you have the other.

This is a canard.
Or perhaps your experience is different from mine. Do you know a good player who is a bad teacher? I don't. Whenever I've asked a player specifically, at any level, how he did what he did, I always learned something from what he said. And I always learned more from the the better players.
True, there is no guarantee that a good player will be a good teacher. But I doubt that a bad player would be a good teacher. A bad player might be able to teach a beginner a trick or two but the downside is that a bad player will often offer bad advice- as we have seen happen often on this board.
Great players have put their time in and have thought about what they do. Even if they can't talk they can at least slow down what they do to make it understandable. Brendan Mulholland, a great player, who claims not to read music at all, or Mike Rafferty, who really doesn't know "music," are good teachers. I don't know one single great player who isn't a good teacher.
Do you?

[peeplj]

I don't know one single great player who isn't a good teacher.
Do you?

If we broaden this discussion to include more than just our one genre of music, then yes, I unfortunately happen to know several.

Within Irish music, I have encountered at least one teacher who was less than stellar; you'll forgive me, I hope, that I will not bring his name into the discussion.

--James