Shall we resume saying how long we've been playing?

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jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

Gordon wrote:How long we've been playing - presumably the flute - is such a loaded question it really has no shelf life - the "off-topic" rambles are exactly what's kept this thread going. That we all progress at different speeds is one inherent flaw in the question, while another is that many of us play some, or many, instruments other than the flute.

How musically wired our brains are before the flute, how rhythmically aware, how well we listen to music in general - all this makes a difference when asked how long we've played - a groundwork before learning all the necessary techniques unique to the flute. This said, there are also gifted players who simply get it early on, and their few years on the flute will outshine many who have played far longer.

In other words, how long a person played tells us nothing.

,
I agree with everything in this post except the conclusion
you draw, which is a non-sequitur.

Consider this information:

I've been playing flute two
weeks, really like it.

It's false this tells us nothing about the posters degree
of proficiency.

Similarly that someone has been playing ITM on flute
for six years, while it's no guarantee, makes it pretty
likely that the individual knows how to play a number
of tunes on the flute, can hold it, and so on. Probably
this person has a fair amount of experience.

In both cases it's helpful information if you're wanting
some gross and very rough idea of where someone's
post is coming from, especially the level of experience
from which it flows. For our purposes here, that
can be useful.

For instance if someone gives detailed instructions
about holding the flute in response to a noobie's question,
it may be helpful for her to know whether he's been
playing for two months or ten years. She may welcome
the new player's advice, figuring he's closer to where
she's at; on the other hand, she may welcome the
more experienced player's advice, figuring that
people who have many years of experience may
actually know more about it.

Info that tells us nothing is worthless, but
I don't think this information is worthless.
It may actually be of some help to some people
in some situations that arise here.

We did this for awhile a few years ago. At the time several people
realized that people at the beginning of their
fluting were receiving advice that was stated
with great authority that often came from people
who had played much less that the questioner.
So we did adopt the practice of saying how long
we'd been playing, something anyone could
do instantly, and I thought it was
helpful in that circumstance.

We seemed, at the time I started this thread, to be
returning to that situation, which is why I suggested
we start saying again how long we'd been playing.
People didn't take up the suggestion, however, which is fine
with me. And the circumstances that prompted my
suggestion don't seem to exist any longer. So
I hope we'll let the thread die.
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cocusflute
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Post by cocusflute »

We agree that playing for a long time doesn’t mean a person is qualified to give good advice. Some people have said that even playing well doesn’t mean that a person can give good advice.
Taken in context I suppose that means we should all refrain from giving advice. That’s perfectly reasonable. I think that the urge to give advice often comes from an urge to boost one’s self-esteem (“See how much I know”) rather than a genuine desire to help.
This seems especially true in light of the fact that many people who give advice have not given us any reason (i.e., posted a clip of their playing) why we should think they know how to play the flute. Much less play well.
And now cue “Playing well doesn’t mean you can tell somebody else how to do it.”
Is this the same as “Playing well doesn’t mean that you know how to play well?”
Cue a discussion on what it means “to know.”
I’ll skip that one.
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Post by pancelticpiper »

cocusflute wrote: ...the ability to play well and the ability to teach well are two different skills; having one by no means insures you have the other.

This is a canard.
Or perhaps your experience is different from mine. Do you know a good player who is a bad teacher?
I've known many over the years.
Wonderful players with a natural gift, who sort of learned to play by osmosis or something. People who never had to think about what they were doing, who never had to break tunes down to learn them, who never had to develop practice strategies, who are completely incapable of verbalising, analysing, or isolating anything they do on their instrument.

I have one on tape: a workshop where the teacher, a fantastic player on a number of instruments with a vast repertoire, spends ten minutes struggling with how to explain what a triplet is. The very word "triplet" is apparently not in his vocabulary, and he simply cannot find a way to verbally convey the notion. He's also incapable of playing a triplet in isolation or slower than full speed. He's not sure just when he is playing them, as he puts them in here and there at whim without thinking about it.
He ends up simply saying "well I can't explain it but it sounds like this" and plays the entire tune up to speed. Many of those at the workshop were no wiser at the end.
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Post by Gordon »

Jim, my conclusion was not at all a non-sequitur. It was my point entirely. Of course a player of two weeks has less to add, as a whole and on any level, than a player who's been at it for years. OTOH, I've heard some players at it for years that may as well have been playing for two weeks.

My point was that a player's abilities are not exclusively quantifiable by the years they've played - if this were so, we wouldn't have been marvelling at that young woman (teen, I think?) who played so impressively on the Comhaltas site awhile back, while many a middle-aged player attains only a degree of mediocrity after years of sitting through session after session. Some pick up the flute as a first instrument, after a lifetime of nothing, while others added flute to an impressive repetoire of other instruments, or lifetime of really absorbing music. Some grew up around ITM, specifically, and the nuances come rather naturally, while others studied jazz, rock, classical, and other barely related musical idioms that (may) effect their ability to grasp those nuances quickly, or at all. Some practice flute for hours a day, while others only get to it for a few minutes after a hard day at work. Again, it all depends on the individual.

Which, to repeat my sequitur, means that merely discussing how long a person has played tells us nothing, really. Nowhere in my post did I try to get into the quagmire topic of whether or not anyone can, or should, give advice. Advice is cheap, and gleaning information from it has as much to do with the receiver as the giver - that Cocusflute can learn from another player (and, rightly, more-so from a better player) says more about him than whoever is the teacher and/or advice giver. And James (and Pancelticpiper) is right, too - plenty of good players are simply not good teachers; you learn more from listening to them than having them try to explain anything. Which, given the music we are mostly involved in here, is probably the best way to learn anything, anyway.
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cocusflute
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Post by cocusflute »

pcpiper wrote:Wonderful players with a natural gift, who sort of learned to play by osmosis or something....He ends up simply saying "well I can't explain it but it sounds like this"
As to the first, none that I know. Wonderful players have all put in their time and thought about what they do. Whether they can -- or want to -- talk about what they do is something else again.
As for the second- does a teacher of an art/skill have to articulate and verbalize what he does, in order to be a good teacher? The good fiddlers I know have learned a lot from Tommy Peoples' classes. The ones who complained learned nothing and at the end were as mediocre as when they came in.
Does the one example you offered prove that good players aren't good teachers? Was he this inept in everything he taught? Did you learn nothing from him?
Gordon wrote: ... you learn more from listening to them than having them try to explain anything. Which, given the music we are mostly involved in here, is probably the best way to learn anything, anyway.
Amen, brother. When you get right down to it there isn't any other way.
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Rob Sharer
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Post by Rob Sharer »

talasiga wrote:Well it was a question about musical authenticity that started the recent bout of it at page 14 of this topic namely, with peeplj's thoughtful and sincere response to JS, followed by some hefty paragraphs by Rob Sharer and a line of posts including Ronbo and Jemtheflute etc.
Funny, but in your summation of the missing bits, you fail to mention the thin, sour dribble of meaningless, error-ridden, pseudo-academic puke you issued on the subject. Give me a hefty paragraph anyday. Cheers,

Rob
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