Shall we resume saying how long we've been playing?

[Rob Sharer]

Hey, I've got a whole week under my belt. That's gotta count for something right? :D

KAC

A whole week, and already at 1/3 of my post-count. How do you find time to practice? Cheers,

Rob

[kennychaffin]

Hey, I've got a whole week under my belt. That's gotta count for something right?

KAC

A whole week, and already at 1/3 of my post-count. How do you find time to practice? Cheers,

Rob

Easy, you must just be a slow poster.

KAC

[dlambert]

Over time I've noticed that as people advance in their Irish music experience they tend to move on from the board. So most of the comments here are from newcomers excited about their first flute (or 5th as it may be). Some hoary old dogs like Jim and Loren stick around to offer up sage advice. The board definitely wouldn't be much without them. The playing experience represented here is mostly beginners. I'm sure this isn't much of a revelation.

My advice with the board is to use it as a great resource for finding that first flute, pick up a few tips to get you started (thanks for the rolls brother Steve) and then launch yourself out into that wide world of music and sessions and people. Come back here occasionally to warm up by the community fireplace.

[Denny]

[Rob Sharer]

Careful, your clap-count is mounting...

[peeplj]

Interesting thread, not quite sure what revived it though.

You know, the sheer number of years someone has played tells you something, I guess, but I'm not sure that something is what you think it is.

For instance--I've played Boehm-system flute since I was 11; I'm 43 now, so you'd get the idea that I'd been playing silver flute for 32 years--however, there were about ten years in the midst of that when I didn't play anything at all or even touch an instrument, so call the number 22, give a take a year or two.

I've been working on silver flutes since I was about 20--so I'm fairly decent at that, anyway, and I can do a pad job and overhaul as well as anybody and better than most.

On to Irish flute:

I've played Irish flute since 1997.

Heh.

No, I've played at Irish flute since 1997. I've been trying to learn to play Irish music authentically for about five or six years. I've been a decent session player for maybe four years. The last two years, especially the last year, has seen a lot of change for the good, but I'm still not where I want to be and I'm still working on it.

Now I said all that to say this:

Someone with a moderate amount of talent taking weekly lessons from a good teacher for 3 years would be able to play circles around me.

Of the two of us, though, I might be able to give better advice to a learner, particularly where it comes to the mechanics of breath control and tone production.

So you might be cautious in reading too much into how long someone has played. And you might also want to get them to be more specific about what "played" means.

"Five years playing in sessions," for instance, means something quite different from "Five years spent noodling out tunes from tune books on my own about one weekend a month when the garage isn't too cold."

--James

[Denny]

Careful, your clap-count is mounting...

[jim stone]

Some hoary old dogs like Jim and Loren stick around to offer up sage advice.

WOOF!

[Rob Sharer]

Let's not start counting bogeys.

[kennychaffin]

Interesting thread, not quite sure what revived it though.

You know, the sheer number of years someone has played tells you something, I guess, but I'm not sure that something is what you think it is.

For instance--I've played Boehm-system flute since I was 11; I'm 43 now, so you'd get the idea that I'd been playing silver flute for 32 years--however, there were about ten years in the midst of that when I didn't play anything at all or even touch an instrument, so call the number 22, give a take a year or two.

I've been working on silver flutes since I was about 20--so I'm fairly decent at that, anyway, and I can do a pad job and overhaul as well as anybody and better than most.

On to Irish flute:

I've played Irish flute since 1997.

Heh.

No, I've played at Irish flute since 1997. I've been trying to learn to play Irish music authentically for about five or six years. I've been a decent session player for maybe four years. The last two years, especially the last year, has seen a lot of change for the good, but I'm still not where I want to be and I'm still working on it.

Now I said all that to say this:

Someone with a moderate amount of talent taking weekly lessons from a good teacher for 3 years would be able to play circles around me.

Of the two of us, though, I might be able to give better advice to a learner, particularly where it comes to the mechanics of breath control and tone production.

So you might be cautious in reading too much into how long someone has played. And you might also want to get them to be more specific about what "played" means.

--James

Exactly. You can get good advice from a newbie and bad advice from an old foggie and some of us are both.

Like you James, I've played clarinet since the mid 60's but also like you there was a 20 year break when I didn't play, but have picked it up on occasion to see if can still play and other than the lack of embouchure it all comes back (like riding a tricycle I guess). I've only recently started on the tin whistle and am working to learn the Irish/celtic styles as well as good ol 'merican tin whistle. Even more recently (as in last week) I got my first flute - a Tipple but almost simultaneously followed it with a Dixon combo low D whistle/flute and with a Dixon "Delrin"/Polymer. I am seriously practicing both whistle and flute and slowly getting better at both.

The thing is, as often as not a relative newbie can help other newbies in ways that some experienced players can't because they have these incredible embouchures and are often out of touch with the original learning process (certainly not all, many here are very good at it even though they have been playing for decades ). It's good to get lots of help and support from a variety of sources as you are leaning something new --- at least that's my thought on the matter. I'm glad to listen to anyone that is willing to take the effort to assist and guide me.



KAC

[Denny]

Let's not start counting bogeys.

do feel free to count or not count whatever you want!

Ya ever notice that musicians count like the guys that build fences?

[pancelticpiper]

So let the big talkers post clips.
Scary but it will tend to make necessary distinctions a lot more accurate.
I.e., who are the talkers and who are the players?
There are few of us who can't make an MP3 of our playing...

Well I'm one of the few, I suppose.
I'm so techno-challenged that it took me over a year to join this board. (I jumped through the hoops to register, but then when I tried to post it said I couldn't post because I wasn't registered. But when I went back and tried to register again, it said I couldn't register because I was already registered! I just gave up.)

I fully agree that listening to clips will give us a clear idea of where people are coming from as musicians. We're talking about a nonverbal form of expression, after all.

But I haven't the slightest idea of how to record myself playing other than the tape recorder I have. I don't even know, exactly, what an MP3 is. I assume it is some manner of recording and transmitting sound.

So, the only soundbites available of my playing are on my website, which were recorded at the home of the same friend who built my website.

I've been playing Irish flute, whistle, and uilleann pipes since the 1970's. I know a lot and still have a lot to learn. I give advice when I think I can be helpful. That's the teaching instinct in me. If people want to ignore it, so be it.

[pancelticpiper]

And as one of the doctors who works for me said, just because you made it through medical school does not mean you know very much about medicine and treating patients.

This brings up an issue that is very interesting to me, though probably completely off-topic.

It's fascinating that the "general public" has very different perceptions about how skill is aquired in various realms of human endeavour.
Skill in some professions is perceived as being entirely aquired through learning. Skill in other professions is perceived as being simply a talent requiring no training whatsoever. The truth of course is somewhere in the middle of the nature/nurture conundrum.

Go into a doctor's office, and what is on the wall? Pieces of paper documenting the person's educational background. The implication is that medical skill is mainly learned and does not come from inherent talent. But we all know that two people who sat in the same seats through medical school and have the same qualifications on paper may have vastly different levels of skill. Obviously talent plays a role. What would the general public think if they went into a doctor's office that had bare walls, and when asked, the doctor would reply "I haven't gone to medical school, I just have a talent for healing people"?

When, in the aftermath of the rapid sweep by the allied military into Iraq in the first Gulf War, US military personnel were interviewed and asked to account for the success, they invariably stated "we have the best training and equipment in the world". The implication is that military skill likewise is a learned skill (in this case supplemented by equipment).
But anyone who has read anything about the American Civil War knows that nearly all the generals on both sides, the brilliant and the horrible, had received exactly the same training, being classmates at West Point. Obviously talent plays a part. But I never heard any of the gulf war commanders say "you know, I just have a talent for war."

At Disneyland (where I work), in New Orleans Square, very good jazz musicians play daily. Nearly all of these musicians have college degrees in music, some have Masters, a few have Doctorates. Yet I've never seen a framed Doctoral diploma on the wall behind these guys as they play, and the door to their dressing room says one word: "talent, as if no training at all were required, and they simply lept from the womb with a complete knowledge of music theory!

I run into these strange perceptions all the time, being an artist. People are often amazed to learn that I actually have a degree in art, as if the idea of training in art is an oxymoron and that, like musicians, artists are somehow born with a complete knowledge of their profession.

[Loren]

I get your point about talent vs. training, and it's valid, but of course there is more: Namely practice (after training), experience (application in the real world in real time,) Motivation, and Work Ethic.

10 surgeons may go through the same surgical training, but in the end, "talent" only plays a small part in who becomes the best surgeon of the group: The doctor who is most motivated to become technically proficient, the one who works the hardest at it, the one who does the most surgeries after training, the one who most believes it's important to do the best possible job......that's the one who will become the best surgeon, even more so than one who simply has more natural "talent".


Loren

[Ro3b]

I think as far as learning music goes, talent is irrelevant. As a teacher, I understand "I have no talent" to mean "I'm too unmotivated/conflicted/lazy to practice."