Chiff and Fipple Forums

Early 19th century flutes had hocky-stick shaped bottom C and C# keys that overlapped, so that pressing C also closed C#. It was not always reliable though, especially as the usual touch layout put the pressure well off the axis of the key, and the necessary clearance in the mechanism could cause binding. Here's an example on a Bilton flute.



Sometime later, some makers switched to an arrangement whereby a silver claw protruding from the C natural key touch passed through a perforation in the C# key touch. Here's an image of such an arrangement on a Prowse Nicholson's Improved flute:



Not everyone adopted it though - for example Siccama, and therefore Pratten, adopted a different arrangement where the C key touch lodged in a cavity provided for it in the C# touch. You might be able to make it out in this original Pratten:



And later Rudall Cartes went back to something more akin to the earliest example.

Now, I'm aware that Prowse and Rudall & Rose both used "the Claw" - anyone have examples by other makers? It would be interesting to see if we can determine who started it.

Dave Migoya can probably tell us when RR started clawing, but it's harder to tell with Prowse as he stayed put in Hanway St, so we can't relate his serial numbers to dates with any precision. If we found a claw on a very low order serial number, we might assume he was the Creator of the Claw.

Terry

Dave Migoya advises:

"here is a link on my website that will settle the Claw issue.....or interlocking footkeys as I call them.....regarding Rudall/Rose

http://home.earthlink.net/~migoya/id17.htm
then click "crescent foot key touches"

feel free to post it on C&F for me in your claw thread"

Terry

Terry McGee wrote:Dave Migoya advises:

"here is a link on my website that will settle the Claw issue.....or interlocking footkeys as I call them.....regarding Rudall/Rose

http://home.earthlink.net/~migoya/id17.htm
then click "crescent foot key touches"

feel free to post it on C&F for me in your claw thread"

Terry

Terry want a cracker?
Hi Terry,
So the idea was ripped off of Monzani! Tisk, tisk...

I'm back!

Thanks, Terry, for posting.
I'm not sure, Jon, if Monzani originated "the claw" as Terry calls it. (cute name indeed!)

But certainly Rudall wasn't the first... although the firm seemed to be the most well-known user of it.

Thank goodness someone started to use the real "crescent" Eb key.....wasn't it Rockstro who said he did it first or near first?

Either way......the website link will show when the use came into being with Rudall, which was after others.

Here's the link again:

http://home.earthlink.net/~migoya/id17.htm

Hmmm.....and then there is always the possibility that Hill/Monzani #3081 (c.1830) was the original....setting up help for a awkward touch .... (Neccessity being a mother....)

David Migoya wrote:I'm back!

Thanks, Terry, for posting.
I'm not sure, Jon, if Monzani originated "the claw" as Terry calls it. (cute name indeed!)

But certainly Rudall wasn't the first... although the firm seemed to be the most well-known user of it.

Thank goodness someone started to use the real "crescent" Eb key.....wasn't it Rockstro who said he did it first or near first?

Either way......the website link will show when the use came into being with Rudall, which was after others.

Here's the link again:

http://home.earthlink.net/~migoya/id17.htm

Hi,
Welcome back!
I wonder if the interlocking keys was Wylde's design, didn't he also work for Monzani?

Please. Everyone knows the real origin of The Claw:

I beg to differ! The original is The CRAW, Not the CRAW!!



http://members.tripod.com/cone_of_silen ... s/CRAW.jpg

"Image Hosted by Tripod".

???

it got lost!
duh

it was the Craw...the character from Get Smart

Oh, well.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming:

Dunno who came up with the "claw", myself, but my Noy has it, and I like it.

David Migoya wrote:I'm not sure, Jon, if Monzani originated "the claw" as Terry calls it. (cute name indeed!)

But certainly Rudall wasn't the first... although the firm seemed to be the most well-known user of it.

Thank goodness someone started to use the real "crescent" Eb key.....wasn't it Rockstro who said he did it first or near first?

It may well be that Monzani had it before Hill. I have an image of a magnificent Monzani of a transitional type (downwards facing tenons, but the pretty swiveling cups) I saw at Boxwood in 2002 - I'm trying to get date information. It has the claw. I'll report back if I can get a date.

Rockstro certainly had a vaguely crescent-shaped plate on the Eb key of his Rockstro's model, but it wasn't in any other way extraordinary. I guess he just figured it was a better shape than Boehm had been using. You see real "crescent keys" (where the key is wrapping around a circular touch plate) on some other models of flutes, eg Gordon's, Clinton's.

Tricky, this business of finding memorable and meaningful names for key styles. All English C and C# keys are interlocking to some extent (closing C also closes C#, unlike on German flutes), so the word "interlocking" isn't much help to us by itself. I tend to call the early ones "hockey-stick", then "the claw", but I'm not sure of a good name for the Siccama style that Prattens adopted:



They are also the same gereral shape as the early types, but perhaps we could call them "interlocking hockey-stick", contrasting "overlapping hockey-stick" for the earlier type?



So that would give us :

Overlapping hockey stick
The Claw
Interlocking hockey-stick.

Any thoughts? Any other kinds of foot key arrangements?(other than Boehm's of course)

Terry

Monzani took it to a whole new level...

Terry McGee wrote:

David Migoya wrote:I'm not sure, Jon, if Monzani originated "the claw" as Terry calls it. (cute name indeed!)

But certainly Rudall wasn't the first... although the firm seemed to be the most well-known user of it.

Thank goodness someone started to use the real "crescent" Eb key.....wasn't it Rockstro who said he did it first or near first?

It may well be that Monzani had it before Hill. I have an image of a magnificent Monzani of a transitional type (downwards facing tenons, but the pretty swiveling cups) I saw at Boxwood in 2002 - I'm trying to get date information. It has the claw. I'll report back if I can get a date.

Rockstro certainly had a vaguely crescent-shaped plate on the Eb key of his Rockstro's model, but it wasn't in any other way extraordinary. I guess he just figured it was a better shape than Boehm had been using. You see real "crescent keys" (where the key is wrapping around a circular touch plate) on some other models of flutes, eg Gordon's, Clinton's.

Tricky, this business of finding memorable and meaningful names for key styles. All English C and C# keys are interlocking to some extent (closing C also closes C#, unlike on German flutes), so the word "interlocking" isn't much help to us by itself. I tend to call the early ones "hockey-stick", then "the claw", but I'm not sure of a good name for the Siccama style that Prattens adopted:



They are also the same gereral shape as the early types, but perhaps we could call them "interlocking hockey-stick", contrasting "overlapping hockey-stick" for the earlier type?



So that would give us :

Overlapping hockey stick
The Claw
Interlocking hockey-stick.

Any thoughts? Any other kinds of foot key arrangements?(other than Boehm's of course)

Terry

Hi Terry,
How about the "Pask roller"?

interlock/claw/overlap

you're right
the nomenclature is taxing!
Sort of like the debate we had over French tuning slide!
ugh

I still like interlocking as the best descriptor since the Pratten style (started with Siccama?) C-C# keys were a modified overlap, just making them flush (as your photo of the Siccama foot shows)
The foot key setup of Rudall fame actually has a piece interlocking with another from the underside.

Sigh.....if we don't agree, imagine how difficult things were back then??
famous