What Willie said..

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:45 am

hehe. Myth? Breandan Breathnach was an historian and tune-collector, and his book on the tradition was written after living alongside and playing with the musicians who were the tradition! Myth indeed.

He also wrote:

"Group playing is another modern fashion to be avoided.
Traditional playing, it must be remembered, is of its very nature
a personal expression, and the restraint demanded in playing in a
band or other ensemble kills the spirit which animates it."

Pipes (and harp) were played solo. There's a heeyoooge difference between a solo piper switching on his drones and (very) occasionally tapping the regulators, or a solo harpist (or fiddler for that matter) double-stopping, and some bloke in group of 30 musos sat in a circle in a pub noodling out "counter-point" or "harmony" (especially when he can't be 'arrised to learn).

He was of course talking about the tradition, a tradition he lived as a part of, and he wrote the book a long time ago. Back when the tradition consisted of musos (3 or 4 at most) played together in a house or maybe a pub. Long before the Chieftains took the world by storm, long before the likes of Dervish and Lunasa et al. Although, of course, it was in that very tradition which today's stellar performers got their grounding.

Of course, traditions change and his book wasn't meant to be cast in stone. He also lamented back in the 70's about the introduction of guitar into the music:

"We are now informed in all seriousness that
the lighter commercial ballad personified by the guitar as the
basic accompaniment instrument must be regarded as coming within the
definition of Irish traditional music."

And well, it's accepted today.

Straying away from unison into the realms of "harmonising" and "counter-point" is definitely a trigger for the "pure-drop police" I reckon. Here they come!

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:21 am

GaryKelly wrote:hehe. Myth? Breandan Breathnach was an historian and tune-collector, and his book on the tradition was written after living alongside and playing with the musicians who were the tradition! Myth indeed.

If he was honestly trying to say what you're saying he was trying to say, then damned straight, myth.

Pipes (and harp) were played solo. There's a heeyoooge difference between a solo piper switching on his drones and (very) occasionally tapping the regulators, or a solo harpist (or fiddler for that matter) double-stopping, and some bloke in group of 30 musos sat in a circle in a pub noodling out "counter-point" or "harmony" (especially when he can't be 'arrised to learn).

Yeah, and if you'd spend 30 seconds actually trying to read what I've written, you'll see I'm agreeing with you re "counter-point" and "noodling". Everyone who can plays the melody (except possibly guitar and piano, which aren't that traditional anyway).

But you can't sit there and say chanters plus drones plus regulators means there's no harmony in Irish traditional music. That's just daft. The tradition most certainly includes people who play the melody playing notes (not in unison) to back themselves up. It is utterly common in older traditional players who play instruments capable of it.

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:35 am

Oy, if you've a problem with what Breandan Breathnach wrote, take it up with him!

And if you quote a quote, at least give credit where it's due. It was Breandan Breathnach who wrote "Irish folk music is essentially melodic. It uses no form of harmonic accompaniment or modulation..." not me.

And if you'd spend 30 seconds actually trying to read what I've written, you'll see I'm agreeing with you that there's a big difference between double-stopping and the drones/regulators, and the commonly accepted understanding of the word "harmony" (in which the melody line is accompanied by other lines not in unison, and accompanying chords).

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:53 am

GaryKelly wrote:And if you'd spend 30 seconds actually trying to read what I've written, you'll see I'm agreeing with you that there's a big difference between double-stopping and the drones/regulators, and the commonly accepted understanding of the word "harmony" (in which the melody line is accompanied by other lines not in unison, and accompanying chords).

Ummm... creating accompanying chords is exactly what double-stopping and regulators do. That is harmony, plain and simple: "Harmony - is when two or more different musical sounds occur at the same time."

Fancy counter-point is a very specialized subset of harmony.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:56 am

I'm all little disappointed that the concertina wasnt mentionned as an instrument that can wreak havoc with chords, you can also play many notes simultaneously with it

Also don't forget the box with it's evil "chord" buttons.

Craig Stuntz · Post by **Craig Stuntz** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:38 am

jim stone wrote:John Skelton said in a workshop that session playing isn't
the be-all and end-all of playing, and I'm relieved
to hear this seconded here. I've been at it for three
years, very hard, and I can't yet play in sessions.

The session I go to is explicitly a beginner's session, and despite this there are few tunes I know/can keep up with. So I spend most of the time listening. The other people in the session go out of their way to be welcoming to new musicians and usually ask me to start a tune when they notice I haven't played for a long time. That's really nice and I appreciate it a lot, but I really like listening. It's an extremely valuable time for me to just sit and tap my foot and follow the music in my head. So often going to sessions seems to be equated with playing. But there's a lot to be learned just from hearing others play, I think.

-Craig

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:51 am

What about the piano playing you get behind old recordings and more than a few modern ones? Isn't this harmony?
I saw Noel Hill recently and he had an electric piano backing him and Alec Finn wasn't just following the melody line a lot of the time.

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:21 pm

treeshark wrote:What about the piano playing you get behind old recordings and more than a few modern ones? Isn't this harmony?

Yes, absolutely. Though I'd think you'd get an argument that this was non-traditional when it first appeared on recordings back in the 1920s.

For whatever reason (probably has something to do with being much less traditional, and good at playing chords), guitar and piano aren't "required" to play the melody, even though they're both quite capable of playing the melody, and sometimes will play it. However, neither of them would traditionally play counter-point, either -- just some sort of chords to provide harmony.

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:32 pm

I think we could endlessly wax pedantic on what is considered harmony in traditional music (by the way, "pedantic" is officially my word of the month for March). Harmony is probably here to stay though hopefully there are enough traditionalists to keep the invasion to a moderate level. Some I like but find a lot of it over-the-top. If I had to choose I'd take none over any in interest of keeping the tunes and songs alive instead of turning into symphonic movements.

I think the quotes from Messrs Mitchell and Breathnach provide excellent counterpoint (oops, harmony pun

) to a lot of the "Nouveau Trad" ensembles.

Cheers,
Aaron

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:52 pm

OK, was "Willie" always spelled "Wilie" in the topic title, or is somebody getting clever a la "Wile E" as in "Wile E Coyote?"

I keep waiting for an Acme flute bomb to fall from the sky.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:19 pm

It was always spelled that way---in the topic title.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:37 pm

So I guess I'm the one being pedantic!

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:52 pm

Well, not being a flute player I'm not sure what the feeling about spelling is in this neck of the woods

. I myself would not consider it pedantic in the least to wonder about a misspelled (I hope I spelled that right, Steve Shaw caught me on that one---yeah, I know, I could look it up) word. I think it's a typo that no one noticed.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:10 pm

Cynth wrote:Well, not being a flute player I'm not sure what the feeling about spelling is in this neck of the woods .

Ambashirr.

Ombishure.

Umbashewer.

It's all good.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:11 pm

Oh dear, I think I remember that discussion.