What Willie said..

[Brazenkane]

Fiddler James Kelly and I have had long talks about the language, sean-nos singers, and the idea of "having" to understand the language. James understands (I suspect) more Irish than he himself knows. When I speak snipits of Donegal Irish to himself, he fully understands, except dialect idosyncracies. Conversely, he tells me of a trend in the late '60's that perpetuated the idea that you could not accuratley play an air if you didn't understand the words. James, being one of the greatest air players in traditional music, takes that stance of "as an instrumentatist-I'm concerned with melody. It's the melody I'm playing and manipulating." to paraphrase more; he'd say that he doesn't need to know about the greeen mountain the goat got lost on because "Sean was writing a love letter on a dew dropped leaf," to constuct an aural picture and pace an air.

We might wax on forever about this. I beleive there is that duality (regarding James) of understanding the spoken language to an extent, and understanding the language of airs themselves thoroughly, is how his music comes out the way it does.

Personally, I think it would be brilliant to be fluent! As if the pipes weren't enough!? Tom Standeven (sp?) sure enjoyed both camps. I think he told Tim britton that beffore he started learning pipes, he must learn to read and write Irish..and I think Tim did to some extent early on..

[Cayden]

Willie was in fact taught basic Irish in school. In the same interview he talks about how much Seamus Ennis had the advantage playing airs as a fluent speaker of Irish. But maybe it's time to steer this thread away from the subject of Irish, fact remains there are many of the finest traditional musicians who don't have much (or any) Irish at all (and the reverse is true too, I have come across native speakers without much of a grasp of music even though they tried hard.). Recently I had Nuala O Connor and Breandan Begley in the house filming for TG4 and it was interesting to see how the majority of the musicians present were hugely nervous having to speak even a few words of Irish. The main subject of the documentary had none at all.

It's the running before you can walk and the need to put in the effort if you want to have a fair go at it that has a context on the forums in my opinion.

[bradhurley]

It's the running before you can walk and the need to put in the effort if you want to have a fair go at it that has a context on the forums in my opinion.

Agreed, and it's great advice, especially now when people seem to be rushing to learn to play just well enough so they can join sessions. That's the most damaging thing, I think. Lots of people see musicians playing in a session and think, "that's cool, I want to be part of that club." To me, it's the rush to join sessions that's the main culprit in leading people to run before they can walk, or worse resorting to shortcuts like leaving out half the notes in a tune

[Cayden]

Back on Clips & Snips someone who couldn't play a reel properly to save his life treated me to the old 'but at session I can play them well'. The ultimate example of what we're talking about.

[Henke]

I have heard Scandinavian folk music which sounds pretty good and very like Irish Trad. I did not know they spoke Gaelic in Scandinavia.

I'm interested in knowing what scandinavian folk music sounds very much like ITM. Some sort of fusion perhaps?
I don't think most scandinavian trad sounds much like Irish trad at all. There are a few similarities however. Just like there are similarities between old norse language and gaelic.

I myself have no idea where I stand in this question. I'm not really experienced and I know two words or something in Irish. But as an amature musician, I'd probably agree with the statements of James Kelly posted by Brazenkaine.

[MarkB]

What a lovely conversation going on here, very enjoyable!

I would love to learn the language and have made several attempts to do so but having the hassle of finding someone to change shifts with me in the library for classes on Monday nights is out of the question. The Gaelic League in Detroit has regular classes through the winter. Because I believe that it will help with the music, if not in meaning of the words/grammar/speacking etc. but with the sound of the words in the title of the tune when they are in Irish.

I also agree with Brad and Peter, that to many new musicians run to sessions with limited ability and sit in hoping to be accepted and then spend most of the night noddling away trying to learn tunes on the fly. I left my flute at home for almost four years before I brought it out to a session and then in only a limited capacity to the tunes that I could play with respect, respect to the music and respect for the other musicians. Those four years were spent learning and practicing in a very discipline regime..two hours a day every day, seven days a week And I still feel that it is still several years before I make a recording of my playing for public perusal.

That was the same way with my bodhran playing (sixteen years ago) for five years, I sat way behind the others with a towel in the back of the bodhran just quietly working on the rhythms and learning the music.

Thanks for your thoughts Peter!

MarkB

[Tjones]

Back on Clips & Snips someone who couldn't play a reel properly to save his life treated me to the old 'but at session I can play them well'. The ultimate example of what we're talking about.

I feel that when I'm playing with better players my playing is better. The flow and timing and the sound. I've been taking a class in which the instructor has cut a series of CD's. He plays each tune at speed and then slow, so one can learn it. With the Cd I sound fair. without the CD I strugle even to start the majority of pieces. Music is very much a type of language, and I feel that it's inner related to the language one speaks. I sound very much like me when I play without anyone. not very Irish at all. But with better player's it's like I pick up some of there accent.

Tjones

[treeshark]

snip-. Just like there are similarities between old norse language and gaelic.-snip.

I went to an event a while ago, where there were a mix of Nordic, Icelandic folk and even a few Orkney types, and I was struck by the similarities in the tune and cadences of their speech, they very much reminded me of hearing Gaelic spoken. It's interesting that Welsh has quite a different tune.

[Brazenkane]

It's the running before you can walk and the need to put in the effort if you want to have a fair go at it that has a context on the forums in my opinion.

Peter-it was actually that line that had a built in highlight to me as well (despite my windy writing on the language). It crosses genres of music and relates to everything really. All master teachers and insightful life-loong learners seem to come upon the exact same sentiment.

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

You get people with all sorts of differing degrees of involvement with playing music. I always think of a mando player/builder who noticed I'd only been to a particular session 3 times that year. And twice it was just to meet up with someone. To him I had little interest in the music - not true! I just don't have much interest in sessions, that one in particular (more chaotic/open/amateur/free-form than most - lots of people wandering in from other genres - bad acoustics in the venue as well, etc).
The session format has made Irish music more universal and democratic but it's all too easy to mask lack of ability in them. A lot of people are content to stay at a just-good-enough level forever, they're content and have a good time so it's not a bad thing. They can excel in some other field if that's what they want.
Perhaps the emphasis in the past being on solo playing was better for musicianship? I was thinking just now too that instruments in early Irish music were quieter too - the old flat pipes, especially. Perhaps that curtailed interest in large groups of dancers/musicians.
Willie was a carpenter, I always wondered if that was his basis for music making in a way - you carefully build up skill on a solid foundation, if you don't the whole thing'll fall over! It was a terrible shame he didn't have a few more years left in him, up to the last he could still really play, he would have gone on inspiring people I'm sure.
Another thing about Willie and crew that I miss in most modern players (of whatever instrument) is that they had so much conviction, intensity. They meant what they were playing. Whatever that is exactly. They had a lot of personality in their playing too, perhaps that follows from the conviction part. I don't think you can be a truly inspired dullard, can you?

[talasiga]

................
I'm interested in knowing what scandinavian folk music sounds very much like ITM. Some sort of fusion perhaps?
I don't think most scandinavian trad sounds much like Irish trad at all. There are a few similarities however. Just like there are similarities between old norse language and gaelic.

................

Perhaps my impressionabilty is superficial. Several times I have been out working in the paddock and heard Irish fiddle music on National Radio. I have rushed back to my caravan to listen to it closer. Yes perhaps Irish perhaps not - ah wait, its a bit gypsyish too. Maybe folk fusion. No wait - its definitely Irish. Oh I know! Its Breton but played on an Indian fiddle? Greek fiddles - lyra or rebec? Then the annoucer says - its from Fiinland or something like that! Wow!
I would be very interested if you were to start a topic on the similarities and differences between ITM and Scandinavian Traditional which has only begun to be revived in the last 25 years or so. In the pub perhaps?

I agree on your point about the similarity of the two languages. It extends to the similarity of all Germanic and Celtic (a linguistic category here) languages in as much as they are languages that are accentually stressed rather than metrically stressed as are the languages in Romance and Indic branches of the Indo-aryan language group. In terms of accentual stress English belongs to the Germanic group for it is a Germanic language despite the large group of non Germanic derived words in it. For instance, Latin words in English are enunciiated with accentual stress.

I have heard thhe most fantastic Slow Airs sung by Irish and British singers in English. Perhaps their enunciation was hibernised.

[Cynth]

I have heard Scandinavian folk music which sounds pretty good and very like Irish Trad. I did not know they spoke Gaelic in Scandinavia.

I'm interested in knowing what scandinavian folk music sounds very much like ITM. Some sort of fusion perhaps?
I don't think most scandinavian trad sounds much like Irish trad at all. There are a few similarities however. Just like there are similarities between old norse language and gaelic.

I have listened to some bits of Danish traditional dance music and some Swedish traditional music. I have to say that I didn't hear a similarity to Irish music, although it did sound very good. I'm not going to say that maybe there are no common sounding tunes, but I have not heard a hint of them. I have not listened to a lot however. I saw several videos of a fellow (I'm sorry I'm not sure where to look right now for his name) who was a genius at playing the nyckelharpa (sp)--a very interesting instrument. I don't really understand how Scandinavia got into the discussion, although any music is very interesting .

This is a good website to see videos of mostly traditional music from Scandanavia and Northern Europe:
http://www.tvfolk.net/

It's the running before you can walk and the need to put in the effort if you want to have a fair go at it that has a context on the forums in my opinion.

Okay, I'm glad you said this. This part of the quotation there was no question about, but I was a little surprised that you thought that some things never changed as far as the need to speak Irish goes . Just because so many people who are or were good musicians don't and I had never seen this requirement discussed here and it seems as though we would have been having lots of fights about it if some thought it a definite requirement. For playing slow airs normally sung in Irish I think it would be a tremendous advantage, although I think just reading it would be fine for this purpose, not that I will be able to that either. Too many languages, too little time.

[talasiga]

......
I have listened to some bits of Danish traditional dance music and some Swedish traditional music. I have to say that I didn't hear a similarity to Irish music, although it did sound very good. ......

Were these pieces of music a revival of an old tradition not much played or mainstream traditional Danish and Swedish? Is there a difference? I don't know. Did you hear the music I heard? I don't think so. Looks like I'm going to have to find an audio link to show you what I mean.

Do you agree with the didactism that one must speak Irish Gaelic to be able to interpret ITM well? Yes? Well goodbye to most of what we play and hear and love. Good bye to Celtic Ring crossovers - to Stivell and his revival of the Celtic Harp and to musicians immediately across the Irish Sea.

Hurrah to them all and hooroo to all those gurus who teach westerners indian music though they can't speak a single indic language except for the words, "chai" and "chillum".


(NOTE: this post contains 2 points which are totally several.)

[Cynth]

......
I have listened to some bits of Danish traditional dance music and some Swedish traditional music. I have to say that I didn't hear a similarity to Irish music, although it did sound very good. ......

Were these pieces of music a revival of an old tradition not much played or mainstream traditional Danish and Swedish? Is there a difference? I don't know. Did you hear the music I heard? I don't think so. Looks like I'm going to have to find an audio link to show you what I mean.

Do you agree with the didactism that one must speak Irish Gaelic to be able to interpret ITM well? Yes? Well goodbye to most of what we play and hear and love. Good bye to Celtic Ring crossovers - to Stivell and his revival of the Celtic Harp and to musicians immediately across the Irish Sea.

Hurrah to them all and hooroo to all those gurus who teach westerners indian music though they can't speak a single indic language except for the words, "chai" and "chillum".


(NOTE: this post contains 2 points which are totally several.)

Okay, now just settle down a little bit there. I knew I was going to get in trouble here.

No, I don't think a person would need to speak Irish to play ITM well. There are many Irish musicians and musicians from other countries who play Irish music well and don't speak Irish. I put that in my post above, which I fear you did not read thoroughly! For the special music of "slow airs", I myself do think it would be a great advantage to read Irish so one could understand the words to the song the air was taken from so that one might have a better understanding possibly of how to play the "slow air". But other than that one type of music, no. So I don't know if that is hurrah to me or hooroo to me.

No, I definitely didn't hear the music you heard. I don't even have a title or anything . How could I? Seriously, the other music I refered to I cannot say if it is a revival of an old music not much played or if it is mainstream. Some of it is played by younger people at festivals, so I think that is probably a revival, but it isn't contemporary or new-trad or whatever they call it. Some of it has been on old recordings and the bands went around the country playing at dances in Denmark. I guess that would have been part of a sort of ongoing tradition but it was a very particular sort of music, and I'm sure other types of traditional music exist. BUT, I really don't know a darn thing about Scandanavian music except it didn't sound like Irish music to me. But then I don't know a whole lot about Irish music either. I'd be very interested to hear the audio file if you find it. I hope I'm off the hook now. I've pled lack of knowledge of everything. I'm just expressing my opinion. And hey, did you hear the music I heard?

[RobBBQ]

Interesting read. I remember 2 years ago at the fleadh in Clonmel, the judge gave all the competitors in the senior flute competition a lashing for playing their airs 'wrong'. She said she specifically thought that airs are only played correctly if the listener is able to sing the irish lyric of the air in unision with what the flute was playing. In other words, that airs are only played correctly when directly mimicing the articulation of a singing voice in the irish language. Since that apparently didn't happen in that competition, the judge really handed it to the competitors.

R