Holding a flute: normal vs. piper style

[Whistlin'Dixie]

I know I don't get around much, but this is the first time I've seen a picture of anyone with a grip EXACTLY like mine. Play on!

Mary

[monkey587]

When I got my Tipple flute, I was playing it piper style. When I got my sweetheart flute, I was playing it normal style, but in spite of following lots of advice, I couldn't find a way to get a good angle for my wrist and fingers. I just converted to a sortof hybrid grip that has allowed me to use the middle pads of the index and middle fingers and the end pad of the ring finger, on the left hand. The fingerhole part of the flute is rotated away from me such that the far side off the embouchure hole aligns with the near side of the top fingerhole, which allows me to keep the left elbow close to my body. The index finger is curved around the flute and gives me a balance point, so I am not actually holding the flute but balancing it like everyone says. This is working out pretty well for me.

[AaronMalcomb]

Do you mean the JMV pic, Mary? Hopefully not Patrick Molard, that would be a very odd flute posture indeed.

Not to pick on you, Bob, but maybe I'm just having a hard time picturing your posture from your description. Different postures work for different folks. But the most relaxed position you right arm can be in is the "oath taking" position. Your wrist probably won't need to be held straight; tilt it as far as is comfortable. You just want to avoid shoulder and elbow stress as that will effect your hand more than the wrist will.

I see what you mean about Patrick, there Graham. Have your heard his piping on Dan Ar Braz "Theme For The Green Lands" CD? I really like Patrick's GHB tone. His High A is like a bell.

Cheers,
Aaron

[Whistlin'Dixie]

Do you mean the JMV pic, Mary?
Cheers,
Aaron

That be the one, Aaron.
sometimes I think I hold my flute as if I were hanging on to the monkey bars....

Whenever I start to self-consciously focus on how I hold the flute, how my emboucher is shaped, watching in the mirror, etc, etc, my playing goes all to heck. does that happen to anyone else?

So I don't do that anymore.

Mary

[norseman]

Well Aaron, after looking more at that picture for a couple days, I did find a way to hold the flute very close to the way he's holding it. I was looking for a way to get my left wrist straighter, and to do that I have to hold the flute higher and nearly parallel to the ground like in the picture. With the flute higher, it is much more comfortable to have the right elbow much lower. I do have to roll the footjoint towards me quite a bit to do this. I do think the better posture will help being able to play longer once I get used to it.

I don't quite look like the photo - I would need to lose at least 30 pounds to do that!

[greenspiderweb]

Whenever I start to self-consciously focus on how I hold the flute, how my emboucher is shaped, watching in the mirror, etc, etc, my playing goes all to heck. does that happen to anyone else?
So I don't do that anymore.
Mary

Yes, I do that too Mary, I think it's called flying by the seat of your pants! I'm much better off if I go by how it feels and works than to think about it too much. But good advice comes along, like in this thread, and it's always good to try new approaches. Some actually work better than what we can come up with by ourselves!

[norseman]

For those of you who use the left hand piper hold, I'd like to find out more about your thumb position. Using piper hold, my fingers have more freedom to dance, but I get some discomfort at the very base of the thumb after a while.

So here's the question: how far away from your index finger do you position your thumb? I.e., about what angle does your thumb make in relation to your fingers?

Thanks,
Bob

[bang]

So here's the question: how far away from your index finger do you position your thumb? I.e., about what angle does your thumb make in relation to your fingers?

here's a top view:



i more or less put the thumb where it is most relaxed when the fingers are resting on the holes.

enjoy! /dan

[jim stone]

Yes, this is what I'm doing too, my thumbs a bit more
extended, having been converted at last to PG!

Just in case it hasn't been said in this thread,
there are flute makers who will make a
Bb key that is worked by the right hand.
So access to keys needn't be
a problem.

[monkey587]

So here's the question: how far away from your index finger do you position your thumb? I.e., about what angle does your thumb make in relation to your fingers?

here's a top view:



i more or less put the thumb where it is most relaxed when the fingers are resting on the holes.

enjoy! /dan

How's that flute beard working out for you?

I've settled on a modified piper's grip. I am using the middle pads of fingers LH1 and LH2 and the tip pad of LH3, and LH1 kinda curves around the instrument, and I find that I don't need to do much withthe thumb but stabilize it.

[norseman]

Thanks for the pic Dan, it definately helps! I think my left hand is very similar to what monkey587 described.

I was able to get fairly comfortable with the normal LH hold, but I still never got to the point where the flute felt really balanced. I had to use my RH pinky to counter balance the weight of the flute. I think this is because the contact/pivot point in the normal hold is too far away from the head end of the flute. If I extend my LH thumb way out to the left, I can balance the flute without using my RH pinky, but this is not comfortable at all, and really restricts the movement of my LH fingers.

Using LH piper hold makes it so I can balance the weight of the flute just on the tips of the two thumbs and the lower lip. This really does feel more natural and really frees up the movement of all the fingers. I like not having my RH pinky on the flute. My RH hold is using the tip pads on all fingers, I'm not using RH piper hold.

Using this approach, ornamentation seems so much easier!

Bob

[bang]

[...]the contact/pivot point in the normal hold is too far away from the head end of the flute. [...]Using LH piper hold makes it so I can balance the weight of the flute just on the tips of the two thumbs and the lower lip.

that's a really good point Bob, & one i've wondered about, particularly for keyless flutes, which are more head-heavy. with piper's grip on my keyless flutes there is enough weight at the foot to nicely lift the head so that it rests gently but securely against the lower lip. with standard grip on my keyless flutes the head tends to slip down and things generally seem less secure.

i imagine this is not an issue for most keyed flutes. has anyone else noticed balance problems with unkeyed flutes and standard grip?

enjoy! /dan

[talasiga]

Bang, that looks to me a lot like the traditional grip for large bansuris. I tried to explain this verbally some time ago. Yes. thanks for the thousand words.

[bang]

I like not having my RH pinky on the flute. [...] Using this approach, ornamentation seems so much easier!

Bob- do you ever use the RH pinky to stabilize the flute when playing quick bits with C#? or quick B-Cnat bits? when i do these with the RH pinky up my flute moves a tad whenever all fingers are off the toneholes briefly. i find myself leaving the RH pinky up when doing RH ornaments, but do tend to put it down for those higher ornaments & such. a bad habit perhaps. otoh, the master bansuri player Hariprasad Chaurasia is sometimes pictured w/ LH ring finger on the flute between the first two holes.

enjoy! /dan

[norseman]

I like not having my RH pinky on the flute. [...] Using this approach, ornamentation seems so much easier!

Bob- do you ever use the RH pinky to stabilize the flute when playing quick bits with C#? or quick B-Cnat bits? when i do these with the RH pinky up my flute moves a tad whenever all fingers are off the toneholes briefly. i find myself leaving the RH pinky up when doing RH ornaments, but do tend to put it down for those higher ornaments & such. a bad habit perhaps. otoh, the master bansuri player Hariprasad Chaurasia is sometimes pictured w/ LH ring finger on the flute between the first two holes.

enjoy! /dan

Yes, I do use the RH pinky some for stability. The main difference is that the pinky is not a main anchor point any more like it is when I use the normal LH hold, so everything seems freer. I've been using the RH ring finger for stability on c# also since I recently started playing low whistle, and I have to use the ring finger there.

Bob