Holding a flute: normal vs. piper style

[benwalker]

When I was in India I bought a G Bass Flute. It Took some bloody spanning to play. I gave up on it in the end as it was too painful to play for any length of time.

[talasiga]

.....
Anyway, relevance is so bourgeois!

A class conscious post does not make a classy post.

[norseman]

I guess I missed this thread during the holidays.

I'm still trying to decide which way to go with my left hand. I've recently been working on trying to eliminate some tension in my left hand using the normal hold described by Grey L. I believe the source of the tension was that I was trying to keep my left wrist straight and that made it so I was covering L1 almost with the very tip of my index finger instead of the pad at the tip. It was almost like I was trying to put my index finger into the L1 hole. With my wrist bend a little, I can get the index finger flatter and play on the pad.

I have two questions for those of you who use the normal LH hold:

1) With my index finger in this position, it doesn't seem like I can move it as quickly as the other LH fingers. It only has a short distance it can move. I'm wondering if it will ever be fast enough for crisp ornamentation?

2) This position with the L wrist bent doesn't seem very ergonomic. Have any of you had RSI problems with this postion?

Thanks,
Bob

[Lambchop]

1) With my index finger in this position, it doesn't seem like I can move it as quickly as the other LH fingers. It only has a short distance it can move. I'm wondering if it will ever be fast enough for crisp ornamentation?

2) This position with the L wrist bent doesn't seem very ergonomic. Have any of you had RSI problems with this postion?

I can't play well, so take this for what it's worth.

It is possible for me to get my left wrist krunged up enough (bent back in extension) that it becomes painful and the index finger won't move easily. The key for me is in not GRIPPING the flute. It's not going to go anywhere, so you don't need a stranglehold on it. Just balancing it is sufficient. It's just kind of propped up against my lip by the big first finger joint. It's not gripped by the thumb.

I roll the headjoint in, so that the finger holes are rolled OUT. This is not to change the angle of the embouchure, but to enable me to keep my left wrist at a less strained angle. The right hand is also more comfortable, as it reaches over the flute slightly.

There are positions in which the first finger won't move easily, and those are the positions I avoid. Relaxed is a lot better. Barely touching, in fact.

The only thing I use on the left is inward pressure from the whole hand, the contact point being the index finger joint. The thumb is only lightly held to the flute. In fact, I try to be sure that I can hold it off the flute entirely and still play. Yes, it will eventually roll, but the looseness is what I'm aiming for. The thumb goes back onto the flute only to fine-tune the position.

That's how I avoid pain in the thumb. I don't use it, except only minimally.

My right thumb is more of a problem. I'm thinking that I need a built-up section where my thumb should go. About a centimeter should do it. My thumb doesn't want to go all the way to the flute. It will go that far, but only by arching my whole hand. I'm thinking of asking Casey Burns if he can cook something up.

[norseman]

It is possible for me to get my left wrist krunged up enough (bent back in extension) that it becomes painful and the index finger won't move easily. The key for me is in not GRIPPING the flute. It's not going to go anywhere, so you don't need a stranglehold on it. Just balancing it is sufficient. It's just kind of propped up against my lip by the big first finger joint. It's not gripped by the thumb.

I roll the headjoint in, so that the finger holes are rolled OUT. This is not to change the angle of the embouchure, but to enable me to keep my left wrist at a less strained angle. The right hand is also more comfortable, as it reaches over the flute slightly.

There are positions in which the first finger won't move easily, and those are the positions I avoid. Relaxed is a lot better. Barely touching, in fact.

Thanks, I should elaborate a bit here. In order to cover the LH holes with the pads at the tips of my fingers, I have to position my index finger so it's contacting the flute nearly at the middle joint instead of the base joint. That's the main reason for the small distance I can move the index finger. This does elmiminate nearly all the tension and I can even remove the thumb and still play. This is on a Sweetheart keyless flute in D which doesn't have very wide finger spacing. I'm getting a Dixon 3-piece polymer flute, but I believe the spacing is about the same.

I still wonder if I'll be able to do good ornamentation with the LH index finger because of this.

[treeshark]

not GRIPPING the flute.

This has been important for me, I have had real problems carpal tunnel etc. Keeping the wrists as straight as possible has helped, but most of all cultivating the feeling that the flute is floating there and doesn't need to be gripped. I use the keys so LH pipers grip isn't an option though I do use it on the larger whistles.

[norseman]

Wow - small changes can make a huge difference!! I tried rolling the headjoint towards me more than usual, and it allowed my left hand to relax much more using the normal hold. I believe it's because the support contact at the base of the index finger is more underneath the flute instead of being primarily on the side.

Bob

[greenspiderweb]

This thread deserves to live on, since it can help many fluters along the way. I just discovered also that little changes can bring about big differences in how something feels, which leads to better playing, hopefully, in the end.

I had discovered not long ago, in this thread that I could play with the upper hand in standard flute grip, instead of the piper's grip that I had started out with. It just set up a very steady grip, which enabled me to repeatedly play more consistently.

Now, just today, I found I could actually convert over from piper's grip on the lower hand to the standard flute grip also, just by moving my thumb closer to my fingers, which made it all that more comfortable to play in that position, and more natural feeling. Who knows, someday I might want a keyed flute, as Jim Stone suggested from Grey Larsen's recommendations, that the standard flute grip be learned instead of piper's so that you are able to use the keys in the future. Jim Stone said it took him considerable time and effort to relearn this, after he had been playing with piper's grip initially.

Little changes can mean a lot, that is for sure. And with so many variables with playing the flute, every time you change something and it helps you, it's good.

PS Terry McGee has been posting some interesting threads on grips etc from Rokstro. We need more people like Terry with an interest in helping
people into the flute! Thanks, Terry!

PSS I did eventually switch back to right hand piper's grip. It put less strain on my hand, overall and it also took some pressure off of my left index finger.

[norseman]

OK, I'll do my part to keep this thread going. I'm still trying to decide which approach is best for me for the left hand.

It seems to me the most important thing is to minimize tension in the hand so playing can be as fluid as possible. With the normal left hand hold, there's a starting level of tension in my fingers and wrist just from putting my fingers in position over the holes so I'm using the finger pads. I also have to bend the left wrist back a bit to do this. I can only play for a short time before I feel some slight twinges in the back of my hand and wrist. When I look at the MadForTrad videos of Seamus Egan's playing, I can't see how someone can play with the left wrist in that position without getting carpal tunnel.

With the left hand piper hold, my left hand and wrist is almost completely relaxed and I can play for much longer. I'm well aware that using the normal hold would make the transition to playing a keyed flute much easier, but I only have keyless flutes for now. If I can't progress past the point of getting rid of excess tension in my left hand, I'll never buy a keyed flute anyway. For now, I'm going to keep working with piper's hold for a while. It might be different if I had a flute with a smaller finger spread or an offset G hole.

Bob

[maire]

I use a pipers grip [as maracirac kindly said ] and found that the freedom I gained for ornamentation was priceless. However, the fact is, that unless your grip can be flexible to encompass the use of the keys further on in your career, you are going to have problems. The truth is that I then years later had to relearn how to hold the flute in a classic grip to reach the keys. Now, I`m lucky that after a good bit of practise, this was not too difficult for me to do, however I would urge you Norseman to persevere in the use of the classic grip, then you wont have to learn the grip twice. These days I use pipers grip maybe 99 percent of the time, and although people say that my style is clean and clear, I personally feel that it lacks in areas where I could be using the keys as accents. It`s true that I would still use the c keys as accents, but after listening to Barry Kerr play the other week, I`m going to start work on the use of the g sharp and b flat. When I play baroque or O`Carolans or tunes in strange keys, I switch to classic, and thats fine when done infrequently, but it sure as hell can hurt the bias of your hands when done too often.

[Nanohedron]

Like Maire, I find the freedom and snappiness of the so-called piper's grip indispensable. I can use the Cnat key in ornamenting the A and B. The only key I can't use is the Bb, but crossfingering does the job:

Lower octave: XOX XXX

Upper octave: XOX OXO

Lower octave crossfingered Bb is a bit weak, but I can live with it just fine; upper octave crossfingered Bb is clear as a bell.

There are downsides to either grip when it comes to ITM. What the piper's grip lacks is the stability of the classic grip. More care must be taken to keep the flute steady, and as mentioned, some use of the keys is impossible. The classic grip is much steadier, but ornamentation is less crisp (for me, anyway). Moreover, when using the classic grip I developed a knot in the tendon of my left hand's ring finger (the one that runs just under the palm to the wrist). It was uncomfortable, and so I switched back to PG. The knot is greatly reduced, now. I'm not suggesting that this is something everyone would face using CG, but it happened to me, and may have something to do with my small hands.

Don't know if I'll stick with the PG for good, but it looks like I probably will. I agree, though, that if you can do both, that's not a bad thing.

[norseman]

You don't hold a flute up so much as balance it.

If there is anything cramping, hurting, or applying much pressure at all, you're not there yet. Everything should be very relaxed and comfortable.

Keep trying...there will come a point a flute will just seem to balance itself in your hands.

--James

I read this several times before, but it didn't really sink in until now.

I found the source of the tension in my left hand using the "normal" hold. I was unknowingly applying downward pressure with my right hand and arm through my right pinky. That was causing my to grip harder with my left hand to compensate.

The changes were raising my right arm so my forearm and upperarm are all basically in line with the flute, and rotating my right forearm to the left so the pinky side of my hand is higher. The combination makes it so there's no downward pressure on the flute except for the weight of the fingers on the holes. My hold is now much more relaxed, and I have the feeling of just relaxed support of the flute's weight.

Bob

[AaronMalcomb]

The changes were raising my right arm so my forearm and upperarm are all basically in line with the flute, and rotating my right forearm to the left so the pinky side of my hand is higher. The combination makes it so there's no downward pressure on the flute except for the weight of the fingers on the holes. My hold is now much more relaxed, and I have the feeling of just relaxed support of the flute's weight.

Dunno, Bob. That doesn't sound relaxed at all. Your grip should be light enough to make those adjustments with just your wrist and not your shoulder and elbow. You'll quickly exhaust yourself holding your arm up like that. Check out this pic of Jean-Michel Veillon (in concert with Den) and get a good idea of a relaxed posture.



Notice how his torso is upright, his right forearm is nearly perpendicular to the flute and his shoulders nearly parallel. You should be able to keep your flute horizontal with just your left hand. Your chin will add support so that you can wiggle your lefthand fingers without dropping the flute. The only support your right hand lends is your pinky if your playing G thru C#. Your righthand thumb touches the flute more for giving your fingers strength than for supporting the flute. This way your right arm and shoulders can be in a relaxed posittion which will cause less fatigue.

Cheers,
Aaron

[norseman]

Well, I may have over stated how high my right elbow is. It's really about 6 inches below the level of the flute, but definately much higher than your picture of Jean-Michel Veillon. There's no way I can hold the flute like that unless I turn the foot joint of my flute about 90 degrees towards me. In order to keep my right wrist straight, I have to raise my elbow. This is similar to the arm position when I played fiddle.

I think the real key for me was rotating my right forearm so there was no downward pressure from my right pinky.

[BMFW]

Check out this pic of Jean-Michel Veillon (in concert with Den)

Ah, Den - surely the super-est of all the Breton supergroups! See how Patrick Mollard on UP's is clearly channelling spiritual messages from the musical gods. He is the epitomy of serene.

My wife reckons that if you didn't know what the UP's were and saw someone playing them, you would swear that they were doing their knitting on their lap! Now there's an image to take with you today as you picture John McSherry saying to himself "knit one, purl one....."

Another triple espresso anyone?

G