Holding a flute: normal vs. piper style

[jim stone]

My impression is that flutes, keyed and unkeyed, are
better balanced in PG. Before the flute tended
to seesaw headjoint down, therefore needing
a counterbalance from rt hand pinky or ringfinger--
just as you'all say.

[norseman]

One thing I've noticed about using LH piper hold is that my embouchure doesn't seem as stable. For those of you who have used this for a while, I assume that works itself out with time, right?

Bob

[jim stone]

I haven't used PG for awhile, and I'm
a bit wobbly sometimes in various ways.
but I do think this works out
well, FWIW. It seems every year
I have to relearn the flute
from the bottom up!

[greenspiderweb]

One thing I've noticed about using LH piper hold is that my embouchure doesn't seem as stable. For those of you who have used this for a while, I assume that works itself out with time, right?
Bob

When I first started, I started with PG top and bottom, and when I tried standard grip on top, it immediately steadied my embouchure, and I was able to play at will, instead of hit and miss on the PG. I kept PG on the bottom, because it's less strain for me.

Now I'm used to standard on top, and it's very comfortable for me. Of course, there are many fluters out there using PG top and bottom, and they have somehow worked it out.

[norseman]

I guess I didn't say what I really meant about embouchure stability in my last post (although I didn't realize it at the time ). The flute is stable enough with LH piper hold with the proper placement of the RH thumb anchor point.

What I really meant was that my tone doesn't seem as strong or consistent with LH piper hold. It seems to me that this is due to the direction/angle of the LH contact point. With the normal LH hold, the pressure of the flute against the lower lip is nearly from the side and so pushes nearly directly into the lip. With LH piper hold, the thumb presses more from the bottom of the flute. I will have to see if I can change my embouchure enough to get the same consistency of tone.

Bob

[bang]

With the normal LH hold, the pressure of the flute against the lower lip is nearly from the side and so pushes nearly directly into the lip. With LH piper hold, the thumb presses more from the bottom of the flute.

Bob- where does the flute rest on your chin/lips? mine sits right in the hollow just beneath the lower lip. the angle of the left thumb in piper's keeps the flute a bit lifted so that it pushes the skin just below the lower lip gently against the lower teeth. with the flute rolled back just right this will leave about half the embouchure holed covered. with this approach i'm quite happy w/ how my tone is developing. it seems like i'm getting good consistency and volume this way.

that said, a nice thing about piper's is that you can control the amount of push against the chin by how far up the side of the flute the thumbs sit. if you move the thumbs higher just a tiny bit you will necessarily push harder.

hope this helps. /dan

[norseman]

Thanks Dan, From your description, I believe my lip/chin position on the flute is similar. I just need to experiment more with the position of my LH thumb by adjusting the amount of headjoint turn in. I think I just need more time to get used to the different support that LH piper hold provides.

Bob

[norseman]

When some of you say "fingertips" do you mean the tip of the finger just past the fingernails of the fleshy pad on the opposite side of the finger from the fingernail? I hope you mean the latter because no matter your grip, using the pads is better mechanics. The pad is a larger, more pliant surface and can seal holes with less pressure. Plus the muscles in your fingers will be less contracted resulting in easier, faster movement. ...

Well, this seals the deal for me for LH piper hold (pun intended).

Even though I can get a fairly relaxed LH with normal hold, the length of my fingers makes it so I'm sealing the holes with nearly the very tip of my index and middle fingers. I can move these fingers quickly enough for ornamentation this way, but since I'm nearly using the tips of the fingers, my cuts and taps are very weak. With LH piper hold, they are quite crisp.

Bob

[norseman]

OK, just call me Mr. Decisive.

I still keep trying out the normal LH hold since it does feel more secure and my embouchure and tone are more consistent with it. It may be just that I'm more used to the normal hold.

I've seen several sites including Jame's that recommend using the pads instead of the tips for all fingers including L1 and L2. But Terry's Nicholson article talks about using the L1 and L2 tips, and that's also what Grey Larsen's book seems to show.

So, using the L1 and L2 finger tips in the normal hold does seem to have some backing. Has anyone using this been able to get crisp LH ornamentation? I don't want to continue using the normal LH hold if really need to use piper hold to get strong ornamentation.

[Chang He]

I am pretty new to flute, but I've been doing fine using the tips on L1 and L2, with a classic grip there. Although my fingers are pretty long, so I'm actually using the tip only on the top hole, and the pads on the next two. I didn't know any better, so I started with the Rockstro instructions and I've stuck with that. I do have to practice though, to get the placement right, and it was definitely easier to move quickly with the right hand at first. I found playing The Humours of Whiskey worked those notes well, and was fun besides.

[greenspiderweb]

OK, just call me Mr. Decisive.

I still keep trying out the normal LH hold since it does feel more secure and my embouchure and tone are more consistent with it. It may be just that I'm more used to the normal hold.

I've seen several sites including Jame's that recommend using the pads instead of the tips for all fingers including L1 and L2. But Terry's Nicholson article talks about using the L1 and L2 tips, and that's also what Grey Larsen's book seems to show.

So, using the L1 and L2 finger tips in the normal hold does seem to have some backing. Has anyone using this been able to get crisp LH ornamentation? I don't want to continue using the normal LH hold if really need to use piper hold to get strong ornamentation.

Mr Decisive:

I believe everyone's hand mechanics may be a little different depending on size, flexibility, etc., so just see what works for you best. And it doesn't mean you must stay with that if you run into problems later, as Jim Stone had experienced.

For me, it was an easy decision. I tried piper's first, couldn't get it stable enough to be consistent, tried standard grip on top, and I just knew right away it was working 80% better than all piper's for me. My top hand still isn't lightening fast, but not bad, considering I've been at it a whole 4 months! As long as I keep it relaxed, and use my thumb and base of the index to support the flute, it works a whole lot better and is very comfortable.

Don't feel rushed to solve this. You'll find what works for you.

[Jennie]

I believe everyone's hand mechanics may be a little different depending on size, flexibility, etc., so just see what works for you best. And it doesn't mean you must stay with that if you run into problems later.

Don't feel rushed to solve this. You'll find what works for you.

Thanks for this advice. There is so much variation in what I'm reading. It's hard to trust my sense of what works for me at this stage.

With all the discussion here I'm coming away with these main points:

Relaxation
Balance
Mobility

So here's my strategy. I'll focus on these points, trusting that they'll each improve as long as I stay reasonably comfortable while practicing. I'll give my hand position a chance to feel "normal" before I confuse my muscle memory with too many changes. And I'll gradually make small adjustments.

I have been afraid to develop a "wrong" technique. (Too much Suzuki on the brain with my daughter's violin, maybe?) But if I just relax and keep practicing, I'll develop a natural sense of what works.

Jennie