Right hand grip: it depends probably also on the hand size. Large hands may have no problem with classic grip on the keyless flute. For small hands it's more uncomfortable. On the Boehm flute it's ok, as the finger stretch is very short, so you can not compare.
Left hand: classic grip is supposed to give a more stable hold of the flute. A piper's grip lets the flute roll away as soon as you lift the index finger. That's not only my own experience (which would not convince anyone as I'm only a lousy flute player) but I heard it also from Hammy Hamilton (now we're at the namedropping game again )
Starting the flute I placed the fingers in what is called here the normal position (we could discuss what is 'normal' as when I started looking at fluteplayers around me positions were pretty much equally devided between piper's and normal grip). After a week or two I found I was not able to play A rolls properly and B rolls not at all. I changed to piper's grip (being a piper after all), had no more problems with the top hand notes and never looked back. I think a good point can be made for being more accurate and quick keeping the fingers straight, I can make the argument for doing so while playing the pipes and I don't see why it would change for the flute. Go with whatever suits you best I would say.
I'm absolutely in agreement with Peter on this. I use exclusively piper's grip on both hands and have no problem with speed of ornamenation or tension in the hands.
I think its a question of finger length and proportion. If you have long fingers, I think you have more options. If you have smallish hands, like I do, I found that the piper's grip was the only solution, particularly for the left hand.
Do what works and doesn't hurt, I think is the bottom line.
1. There is no question for any of us, I expect, that PG
is a blessing for people with small hands or other
anatomical features that make Classical Grip
painful, difficult, tense.
I find in my own case that I need PG to play low
whistles, because CG puts my wrists in painful
positions with a vertical instrument.
2. I think we all agree that one can play flute very well
with PG. Nobody MUST use another grip to play well.
3. There was some question whether Grey Larsen recommends
CG for both hands. As the book recommends it for the
left hand and he instructed me to convert to CG for
my right hand, I think it's safe to say that he does.
He advised me that CG on the rt hand would
give me more precision and agility.
4. I made the shift, and, as far as I can tell,
he was right. Please note 'as far as I can tell.'
I don't think I know that he is right, nor do
I believe that my experience PROVES he is
right. It's conceivable that if I had
stayed with PG I would be just as good or still better,
however--in all honesty-- I do have the impression
that there are some advantages to CG
on the right hand along the lines Grey suggested.
Because I used PG for
over a year on flute, and still use it on low whistles,
I can shift back and forth between them
on the flute.
5. This is entirely For What It's Worth.
If I were using PG successfully and comfortably
I doubt that I would shift because I read
this post--even if I believed it. Fundamental changes in one's
right hand position are Much Good Fun!
just to confuse things, let me point out that some piper's grip players use the fingertip pads on all fingers. i've seen pictures of Paul McGrattan & Tom Doorley playing this way.
3. There was some question whether Grey Larsen recommends
CG for both hands. As the book recommends it for the
left hand and he instructed me to convert to CG for
my right hand, I think it's safe to say that he does.
He advised me that CG on the rt hand would
give me more precision and agility.
!
Intersting about that point is that while about half the fluteplayers I looked at use something other than what is called 'piper's grip' here. A majority the fingers of the right hand straight(while the left hand varies more widely) . While I don't claim to know what is best (although I think moving a straight finger off a flute/chanter is a more effective and efficient movement) Grey's advice seems somewhat at odds with what I see around me.
A typical example :
Last edited by Cayden on Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I went from piper's to standard and back to piper's. It's far easier to get my hands to relax that way, but that's probably because I have small hands. The standard grip on the left hand wound up generating a big knot on the ring finger's tendon that runs under the palm. Now it's almost gone. For me, ornamentaion control and crispness are better this way, too.
Ultimately, as so many have said here, one needs to take a cool, dispassionate look at what works best for one. All grip methods and their variations mean you make some kind of compromise in any case. The fluteplayer needs to decide which compromises s/he's willing to make.
OK, I'm confused and am probably confusing others.
When I play lower whistles, I don't
use the finger pads of the distal segment of
my fingers. Instead, I use the underside
of the middle segment. This helps make
the stretch easier and makes the angle of
my wrists less radical. I called that
Piper's Grip, perhaps mistakenly.
When I began playing flutes, I used something
else on my left hand--the position of the
fellow in your picture, I think.
The flute is balanced at the base of my index
finger, the fingers are arched.
However I transferred to the flute my right
hand position on the low whistle. So I
considered this Piper's Grip on my
right hand, as did others here.
Grey told me to use the fingerpad
under the distal segment of the
relevant fingers of my rt hand, not the middle
segment. I now look not terribly different
from the picture--though I can't see
the right hand very clearly. My fingers
aren't extended over the far
side of the flute.
My right hand fingers are straight, not
curved, rather like a pretty standard
way of positioning the fingers
on a soprano whistle.
The right hand shift I have in mind is from middle
to distal segments.
I also use the grip in Pete Laben's picture (I'm not sure what its called and even if a name is important). I do notice, however, in the winter when my hands are somewhat dryer than in the summer, I need to apply some sort of cream on my right hand fingers as the hole coverage is not as secure as when in more humid weather.
Skip Healy was adament that I use the standard grip on both hands but I could not do so comfortably. Especially on the Healy flute where the R3 hole is slightly extended toward the bottom of the flute. My fingers are long and sometimes, after playing for a while, I have a tendance to cover the right hand holes more at the joint between the first and second knuckle. This may be the problem I have covering the holes tightly.
BillG
BillG
- - -
<><
Six Ps! (Poor Prior Practice Prevents Proper Performance)
jim stone wrote:OK, I'm confused and am probably confusing others.
it is a bit confusing that there are (at least?) two components to what i've heard decribed as piper's grip: the left hand's forward wrist position, and the use of the middle finger pads on some fingers. these are somewhat independant elements.
My right hand fingers are straight, not
curved, rather like a pretty standard
way of positioning the fingers
on a soprano whistle.
jim- how long is your index finger relative to the ring & middle fingers? most men have a somewhat shorter index finger compared to the ring finger. consequently i've seen the middle finger slightly bent to make its end pad inline with the other two fingers.
jim stone wrote:OK, I'm confused and am probably confusing others.
it is a bit confusing that there are (at least?) two components to what i've heard decribed as piper's grip: the left hand's forward wrist position, and the use of the middle finger pads on some fingers. these are somewhat independant elements.
My right hand fingers are straight, not
curved, rather like a pretty standard
way of positioning the fingers
on a soprano whistle.
jim- how long is your index finger relative to the ring & middle fingers? most men have a somewhat shorter index finger compared to the ring finger. consequently i've seen the middle finger slightly bent to make its end pad inline with the other two fingers.
fwiw /dan
I'm as most men, on your description.
If I were using my right pinky down to stabilze
the flute I would bend my fingers.
I've got my pinky free and I'm pressing
with my thumb on the flute's back, so
my hand is a bit further away.
My fingers extend just over the
holes, most especially the middle finger.
This whole thing is beginning to sound a little obsessive to me, and I should know, because I come from a long line of people suffering from OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder).
So, let's simplify things alltogether: finger the flute however it feels OK to you. Rather than getting hung up on whether or not you are fingering the flute correctly, think about what you could be saying with the flute. What do you want to communicate? My answer to that question is that I want to compose a waltz this is so beautiful that anyone hearing it will want to hold their partner and dance until the musicians are totally exhausted. That tune is close, and I am working on it. I hope that you are on the dance floor with your sweetheart when the musicians strike it up for the first time.
Doug Tipple wrote:What do you want to communicate? My answer to that question is that I want to compose a waltz this is so beautiful that anyone hearing it will want to hold their partner and dance until the musicians are totally exhausted. That tune is close, and I am working on it.
you go Doug! we're all ready for tunes like that!
forgive some "old farts" exploring the twiddly bits of this all too fascinating craft. for my part, i'm genuinely interested in the variety of human experience we discover together here. i'm honored by the contributions of all the wonderful folks that hang out here. heya!
enjoy! /dan
ps- my middle finger bends about 45 degrees to bring it inline with the other two. :-)
To clarify, I would interpret 'piper's grip' as playing with the fingers streched like this left handed gentleman's top hand (allthough he seems to use the fingertips more than I would), or the right hand of the picture in the previous post (using the middle segment of the fingers, for most holes at least). I have no trouble or strain on the hand or wrist playing a and b rolls with the top hand in this position.
On the other end of the spectrum I would think of players playing with their fingertips, sometimes with the fingers not straight with the lower hand fingers curved as well, like for example Mick Hand in the picture below:
)
