Holding a flute: normal vs. piper style

headwizer · Post by **headwizer** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:23 pm

I got Grey Larsen's Complete Flute/Whistle book the other day and have been reading it bit by bit. Until I got the book, I didn't know I was holding my Casey Burns flute in a piper's grip style - although the CB's ergonomic hole positioning let's me use my fingertips instead of the pads of my fingers.

Anyway, Larsen recommends switching to a normal style - both to relieve any tension on the left hand thumb and to free the thumb to play a Bb key (a keyed flute is hopefully in my near future). The main anchor points in the normal style are the lips, the base of the left index finger, the right thumb and the right pinky finger.

My first question is: does the left thumb play little or no role in stabilizing the flute? The flute has a tendency to roll towards me, even though I angle my wrist so that the base of right index finger is almost flat. And if I push with my lips, after a while, my lips feel like they're being crushed and start to cramp up.

My second question: the most comfortable embouchure position I can attain is to have the tone holes angled slightly away from me (they are not pointing straight up) and the headjoint is angled nearly 30 degrees from the perpendicular toward me. With a piper's grip, I can keep the tone holes pointing straight up and the headjoint is angled about 20 degrees. Am I doing the normal hold correctly?

Father Emmet · Post by **Father Emmet** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:47 pm

I know this doesn't answer your questions, but I've noticed Larsen's gripes about piper's grip are based on the left hand hold. He gives no reason why it shouldn't be used with the right hand. I found he's right about the thumb strain (for me anyway). Have you tried left standard/right piper's?

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:54 pm

You don't hold a flute up so much as balance it.

If there is anything cramping, hurting, or applying much pressure at all, you're not there yet. Everything should be very relaxed and comfortable.

Keep trying...there will come a point a flute will just seem to balance itself in your hands.

--James

headwizer · Post by **headwizer** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:54 pm

" I've noticed Larsen's gripes about piper's grip are based on the left hand hold...."

Yes, that's true. He says that the only differences between the normal and piper's grip lie entirely in how the left hand holds the flute.

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:22 pm

During the first months of fluteplaying I had horrible cramps in both hands too. And my embouchure was very bad. Also the flute was rolling when I tried to play a B roll or a C#.

Then I had Boehm flute lessons for 2 years, and now these problems are gone. Embouchure is more stable, hands are quite relaxed, no cramps. On the keyless flute I use left classic grip/right piper's grip. Works fine for me.

Probably it just takes time and patience. Your muscles and brain need some time to adapt to the job. So don't despair, you will find your own way to hold the flute as well. Just relax and practice.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:17 pm

I played normal grip with my left hand,
piper's with my right--by which I mean that
I covered the holes with the middle of
my fingers. Grey told me in a lesson to
convert to normal grip with my right hand,
covering the holes with my finger pads.
He said I would be quicker
and more accurate.

I made the change; it took time and
frustration,
as I was getting pretty good with the
old technique. As far as I can tell he
was entirely right.

I'm sure one can
play well with right hand piper's
grip, and I think normal right hand
grip is better still.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:29 pm

Just to add:

When I began playing a keyed simple system flute,
I was using my rt pinky to balance, which
made it hard to use the Eb key. I noticed
many players simply rotate the key to
the underside of the flute unless they
need it for a tune. Others are able
to place their pinky on the Eb key block,
but I can't reach it comfortably.

John Skelton, at a workshop, remarked to
me that he plays so that his rt pinky is
waggling free--this gives him easy access
to the key, of course.

So I learned how to do that. Didn't have
the sense to ask John exactly how he did
this, however James's site helped, another
teacher told me that Galway uses his
right thumb against the back of the
flute, and I asked questions here. This has
been another long
struggle, however I've finally made
the transition.

bang · Post by **bang** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:44 pm

jim stone wrote:I'm sure one can
play well with right hand piper's
grip, and I think normal right hand
grip is better still.

jim- would you please elaborate? how "better still"?

there are a number of astoundingly good flute players that use piper's grip, not to mention all the pipers & south asian bansuri folks. i can see the tradeoff vs keys designed for standard grip, but what is lost for unkeyed playing? for the ergonomics of this "middle" aged body, piper's grip was a joint-saver that made playing for long periods possible. for some things like half holes it may have advantages. so what am i missing?

thanks! /dan

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:15 pm

bang wrote:
jim stone wrote:I'm sure one can
play well with right hand piper's
grip, and I think normal right hand
grip is better still.
jim- would you please elaborate? how "better still"?

there are a number of astoundingly good flute players that use piper's grip, not to mention all the pipers & south asian bansuri folks. i can see the tradeoff vs keys designed for standard grip, but what is lost for unkeyed playing? for the ergonomics of this "middle" aged body, piper's grip was a joint-saver that made playing for long periods possible. for some things like half holes it may have advantages. so what am i missing?

thanks! /dan

I mean quicker, more accurate, more agile,
ornamenting more crisply. I suppose part of the
rational is that the ends of one's fingers
are more precise and discrete objects than
the middle joints--dance better, can be
placed and controlled with more precision.

Bansuri often requires piper's grip--these things
can be humongous, and I have to use it on
low whistles. I've seen excellent flutists
use it too--as I said, one can play very well
with piper's grip. I never would have made
the change except that I had driven six hours
to reach the lesson, Grey L is Grey L,
and the lesson, while a good deal,
had cost too much to ignore.

I'm 62, by the way.

Eldarion · Post by **Eldarion** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:18 pm

Apart from keyed playing I don't see anything wrong with using piper grip for playing Irish flutes at all. I've never had issues with tension on the left thumb, and find my finger agility to have never been an issue. On the other hand I find that the lefthand placement of the classical/rockstro styled grip to be theoretically highly unnatural (and practically unatural for me). What's more with piper's grip, I directly carry ornaments over from whistle playing with no problem as the mechanics are similar.

Either way I wouldn't take anything as gospel truth just because Grey L says it.

bang · Post by **bang** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:03 pm

jim stone wrote:
bang wrote:
jim stone wrote:I'm sure one can
play well with right hand piper's
grip, and I think normal right hand
grip is better still.
jim- would you please elaborate? how "better still"? [...]
I mean quicker, more accurate, more agile,
ornamenting more crisply. I suppose part of the
rational is that the ends of one's fingers
are more precise and discrete objects than
the middle joints--dance better, can be
placed and controlled with more precision.

i can imagine a rational in which removing the extra variable of the end joint could make certain things easier for notes played w/ the middle pad. the more "natural" hand position of piper's grip might encourage easier, more relaxed fingering.

but i take it your experience jim is that the switch improved speed and agility? alas, we can't directly compare this to spending the same amount of effort working on speed and agility in your original grip. when i switched to piper's grip, the ability to play longer and with much greater comfort accelerated my progress considerably. but in the long run the same time devoted to standard grip could have had similar results. (lately i've been relearning a new Cnat fingering, & the effort to do so has made my Cnat articulation much cleaner generally.)

Bansuri often requires piper's grip--these things
can be humongous, and I have to use it on
low whistles. I've seen excellent flutists
use it too--as I said, one can play very well
with piper's grip.

my point mentioning bansuri is that the piper's grip it sometimes requires is quite capable of extremely agile, expressive playing. which is as you say.

I never would have made
the change except that I had driven six hours
to reach the lesson, Grey L is Grey L,
and the lesson, while a good deal,
had cost too much to ignore.

i think part of my reaction here is that Grey is reported to recommend against piper's grip without acknowledging that it has demonstrated success, and potential for being better in some ways for some people. it was a real gift to me, so i'm probably a bit defensive.

I'm 62, by the way.

i'm not that far behind ya'. none of us are. :-)

enjoy! /dan

Doug_Tipple · Post by **Doug_Tipple** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:28 pm

My father, who is still kicking at 90, is fond of aphorisms. He had one that is pertinent to this thread: "One man's meat is another man's poison."

Personally, I play the simple system flute with a modified piper's grip on my left hand and a piper's grip on my right hand. One advantage of piper's grip, in my humble opinion, is that it allows the fingering of the flute to be self-adjusting, regardless of whether you have inline or offset finger holes, and regardless of the length of your fingers.

However, the most important thing is holding the flute in a relaxed and balanced position, however you do it. I don't think that there is a universal prescription, but I have been wrong about many things before.

By the way, I am 61 and close on your heals, Jim.

bang · Post by **bang** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:25 pm

btw- my thoughts above have been percolating for a little bit now. jim's post raised the subject, but i'm really addressing the reports i've seen of Grey's opinion. and i have not read the book, so i'm really addressing the crude consensus estimation of Grey's opinion that i have reconstructed so far, in a limited sort of way. caveat emptor! :-)

oleorezinator · Post by **oleorezinator** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:56 am

the pipers grip should pose no thumb tension problems if the thumb is in a position as if covering a thumbhole. playing flat fingered/pipe grip is a simpler and quicker motion finger motion. as seamus ennis said "first you must learn the grip."

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:35 am

When some of you say "fingertips" do you mean the tip of the finger just past the fingernails of the fleshy pad on the opposite side of the finger from the fingernail? I hope you mean the latter because no matter your grip, using the pads is better mechanics. The pad is a larger, more pliant surface and can seal holes with less pressure. Plus the muscles in your fingers will be less contracted resulting in easier, faster movement. Even though I use "normal" grip on my left hand I still posture my fingers so that the pads, not the tips, seal the holes.

I converted from pipers' to "normal" grip partly due to comfort, partly due to convenience. The convenience part was that I had an 8-keyed flute for about a year and pipers' grip didn't work too well with those keys. But I also found thumb-strain to be a problem too and that went away with "normal" grip. The flute is cradled in the crook between the thumb and the hand so it feels less like I'm "holding" it than just balancing it as James said.

Gary Shannon and Paul McGrattan are great examples of pipers' grip being no hindrance to flute playing. But the key difference between pipes and flute is that if a piper takes his/her hands off of the chanter it is held up by the stock and windcap (or by the mouth with a whistle). If one does the same with a flute it's won't stick the player's chin. So though a flute can be played well using pipers' grip it is done at the cost of more strain to the flute player's hands than the piper's.

Cheers,
aaron