Old Time Irish flute

[sbfluter]

Since I normally play the mandolin in my old-time jam and have learned all the tunes by ear through the mandolin at the jam (not on my own time, only by playing at the jam), I have found that if I bring a flute or whistle that I actually know fewer of the notes than I thought I did. I play melody, not chords, with my mandolin and I am pretty good at fudging through the parts I don't quite get. Haven't figured out how to fudge the melody very well on the the flute. Nor have I figured out how to "strum" it.

[bradhurley]

Way back in 1989, the flute player Michel Bonamy recorded a fantastic rendition of Ragtime Annie on his tape "Celtic Contraband."

It's very Irish-influenced in style, but this was one of the first times I remember hearing old-timey American music played on a simple-system flute:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/475 ... 0Annie.mp3

[jim stone]

Thanks. Here is an OT tune played on flute. Entirely pedestrian, I'm afraid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1BR33JOQGE

[kenny]

https://thesession.org/recordings/3409

[sjpete]

I think there are two questions being answered here - one is the historical role of the flute/fife in OT music, and the other is its acceptability by today's OT jam sessions. Even if there is historical evidence that the fife was in use in OT music ensembles in earlier days (and none of the links I saw gave me the impression that this was a standard), it is not part of the OT sound as generally accepted today. Does that mean it sounds bad? No. Does it mean one should play it as his main instrument at an OT jam? I wouldn't, but you know your group. Otherwise you may be imposing your musical aesthetic on an unappreciative audience. Even worse if they are polite and afraid to tell you to stop.

I play clawhammer banjo at an OT jam, and bring the flute out for 1-2 tunes max. For example, one of our fiddlers likes to play Campbell's Farewell to Redgap, and I like it on the flute. The group likes it - but it's only a couple of tunes so I'm not imposing a new (or in the case, old?) sound to OT music. If I only played the flute, I wouldn't go near that session - even if it sounded nice to a few ears.

Think about playing a 5-string banjo clawhammer style at an Irish session - yeah, it can sound good on a lot of tunes, but it's certainly not the Irish music standard. Is it acceptable to do? Sort of depends on your group and what they are trying to do.

[jim stone]

I guess I disagree. We have a Irish session and a fellow plays a five-string banjo, not clawhammer but finger picking. It sounds terrible, IMO, it obliterates the tunes and makes it very hard to follow them. But I say nothing, though I'm probably not alone in this idea. I don't know how clawhammer style would sound with ITM, not having heard the two together, but I sure do like it in OT ensembles. If it sounded good played that way ITM ensembles, I would have no difficulty with it, anymore than I do with a mandolin. We accept banjo played with a plectrum; if clawhammer sounds that good, why reject it?

The response to my flute playing in OT ensembles has been very enthusiastic, near raves. The leader of one group didn't like it, initially, but he's been won over and is enthusiastic. This is the only negative experience I've never had. What's not to like? These are among the instruments a good deal of the music was originally played on back in the day, they sound very good, especially when played well in an Old Time way, and I don't see any principled objection to their being there if they are played tastefully. They can add another dimension to the music, in fact, and it is nowhere written that the genre cannot grow. If people object intially, which happens very rarely, I try to win them over. I'm quite willing to impose on them that much. If they keep on objecting, of course I'll play elsewhere. If I showed up with a button-accordion to an ITM session somewhere that had never seen one, and they objected strenuously, I would do the same thing.

[jim stone]

Here's a favorite OT fiddle tune, on flute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7rrfy9rxbY

[sjpete]

I don't think we disagree that much - I am far from a purist (I once played in a Cajun-Irish-Bluegrass band whose crowd favorite was the Mario Brothers video game theme song). However, I figured that asking the question to the flute forum might be inviting positive bias, and I wanted to explore the other perspective. A lot of people come to OT jams, like Irish sessions, with the express purpose of making and hearing a certain sound. Who gets to decide that it's time to test the boundaries of that sound? And when someone decides to bring an instrument that is not part of the expectation, is he doing it for the good of the group, for the good of the music, or for slightly more selfish reasons? Your comments suggest the first two - please don't take offense! - but I would wonder how many people could pull it off as well as you do. I'd hate to see a bunch of Irish flute players start to flood the OT scene, getting past the front door with their flutes hidden in otherwise empty banjo cases... Oh, and here come the tin-eared whistlers!

I have enjoyed the discussion, and thanks for bringing me out of board-lurker status.

Side note: My clawhammer analogy may not have been the best one, just trying to think of something that might sound "good," even if it doesn't quite fit the genre...

-Stephen

[popsnorkle]

Jim posted interestingly on this subject some time ago, and it sent me off to try to find some additional info about flute in old time music.

I'd like, but don't have a copy of this: http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-00299-9.html

The field recordings by guy who wrote that book are on YouTube:
The Samuel Preston Bayard Folklore Recordings
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... JlhxfoPlQz

[JS]

Jim posted interestingly on this subject some time ago, and it sent me off to try to find some additional info about flute in old time music.

I'd like, but don't have a copy of this: http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-00299-9.html

The field recordings by guy who wrote that book are on YouTube:
The Samuel Preston Bayard Folklore Recordings
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... JlhxfoPlQz

Thank you for the link.

I think Stephen makes a good point about not conflating the question of historical precedent with current performance preferences. The historical info suggests the possibility of creating some new (well, old) and interesting ensembles. My conversations with local OT players (and see Tom Paley's comments, linked in my earlier post), suggest that my fiddle is a better choice to bring to their session than the flute since they're after the particular sound of the recorded Depression-era string bands, while at the New England style sessions the flute and whistle are entirely suitable. Horses for courses. Jim's lucky to have found a group open to persuasion.

[jim stone]

I've played in quite a few OT groups, maybe ten of them, and only run into static once, where I persuaded the critic and he now welcomes me. I can play pretty much what a fiddle plays, people routinely thank me and say the flute really enriches the music. So I think we're addressing a largely non-existent problem.

[JS]

Well, Jim, you brought it up. And I don't think it's inconsequential or somehow ill-mannered that some groups of players might be seeking a particular sound and be unhappy with a change of instrumentation that alters that. This is something we do for pleasure, after all, and part of that might be sustaining one's sense of a particular tradition. A player might just love that sound, not a version of it. Throw a euphonium into a Mount Airy fiddle/banjo duet, and you've changed it, no matter how good the player or that he lives just down the road. And the presence of a variety of defined traditions, of sounds, out there makes me happy as a listener and a player, just as new versions of these do.

I agree with you entirely that lots of old time tunes sound fine on flute and that it's possible to play them in an appropriate style. It happens in northeast style sessions every day, I bet. But for a session that's defining itself as old time, well, I'd take the fiddle or mando and leave the flute home.

[jim stone]

I agree with everything you wrote, except the last sentence--though I certainly respect your choice. We seem to
have had/be having different experiences with OT jams. I do wish I played fiddle, I think it's the king of instruments.
Anyhow people in the OT groups here in St. Louis MO are glad I'm there. Under that circumstance there doesn't seem to
be an issue, at least not in my world.
And I do feel these flutes we play, though ITM will always be the spine of their repertoire, are capable of a good deal more
than ITM. It seems to me to be something worth exploring, including in ensembles; anyhow I enjoy exploring it. Of course (to get existential) I live by the old Chasidic principle: 'Nothing without chutzpah" Kind regards

[JS]

Thank you, Jim. And cheers and all best wishes to you. I'd play old time tunes with you any time.

[jim stone]

Way cool!