Old Time Irish flute

[jim stone]

The Old Time music scene in Missouri goes back a very long time, and some of the best music in St. Louis is Old Time. There are some superb fiddlers, banjo players, guitar players, mandolin players, and so on, and regular jam sessions at which the music is of good quality. When I first showed up at these with my flute, there was some hostility. The leader said that if it had been anybody else but me he would throw them out. Generally I find these sentiments soften after people hear me play. It occurred to me that flutes were widespread in the USA in the 19th century (several American makers, flutes being imported from England), and lots of people had flute chops, having played fife in the Civil War. Probably a fair amount of the OT repertoire is cross-over music from Ireland, Scotland, England, and Irish flute sounds good in such ensembles--the ornaments work fine. So (I would argue) flutes are among the original instruments on which the music was played, and they sound good, so why exclude them? But I never said it to anybody. I just played. Generally people have liked my playing, and OT is syncopated and can be bluesy and jazzy--I do think this is a direction in which Irish fluting cad easily and fruitfully go. The OT tunes are often simpler than Irish tunes, and easier to learn, but many of them are beautiful and interesting, and as mentioned, there is some cross over with ITM tunes.

Anybody else trying this?

[UkesNeedLoveToo]

I play OT fiddle and occasionally whip out an old time tune on my flute (Whiskey Before Breakfast was the first). I've never considered it in a group setting but that is probably because it is so much fun playing fiddle with other fiddlers. I've researched many old time tunes and their origins, never have I seen a flute mentioned but there are many fife references. Maybe that's because a fife is so simple an instrument. One of my favorite dead guys learned much of his repertoire from a civil war fifer.

[jim stone]

Thanks for the response. I've read (I don't remember where) that flutes were used in such ensembles in New England, FWIW. I reckon if I played fiddle I would favor it in ensembles, too. I can play on the flute pretty much what a fiddle plays. That's actually very interesting to do. I do think the flute, when you play it regularly in ensembles, lends an added dimension that people generally find welcome--as in ITM. The rhythmic stuff, a lot of it having to do with breathing, can lend a contrapuntal character to the tune. But one has to play the flute in an OTimey way, but that's doable and interesting. Anyhow the other day, the leader, who is a very fine fiddler, and who was originally upset by the flute's presence, asked me to play a tune on my 'wind-fiddle.' Most kind.

[maki]

I love Old Time Music,any vids?

[jim stone]

Here is a local fiddler playing solo a tune that works wonderfully on the flute.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8gpPXjky-c

[jim stone]

This tune was composed by Scottish immigrants, I believe, toward the end of the 18th century. Chris Norman covers it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wry9Dbt-f0k

[maki]

Thanks Jim, nice tunes.

[jim stone]

Thanks. Here's a last offering, cross over. Please forgive the musican's saying it's an Irish jig. They correct the mistake on the posting, in fact. What interests me is how the country setting seems (to me, anyhow) to breath new life into a tune that, for me, had become a bit mechanical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMxQEGvaVmw

[benhall.1]

Thanks. Here's a last offering, cross over. Please forgive the musican's saying it's an Irish jig. They correct the mistake on the posting, in fact. What interests me is how the country setting seems (to me, anyhow) to breath new life into a tune that, for me, had become a bit mechanical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMxQEGvaVmw

Well, there ya go, it had never become mechanical to me anyway. It's a great tune.

[JS]

Jim posted interestingly on this subject some time ago, and it sent me off to try to find some additional info about flute in old time music.

I'd like, but don't have a copy of this: http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-00299-9.html

There was a thread on the fiddle-l listserv that might be of interest. For some reason, their search engine defeats me when I try to pull up the thread itself, but here are some of the posts:

https://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi ... 1c4f.0603A

https://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi ... 9543.0603A

https://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi ... 4bf9.0603A

And from a related thread:

https://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi ... d3ec.0603A

And from Tom Paley:

https://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi ... 116d.0603A

[jim stone]

Thanks for these links. Here's a youtube video that speaks to the flat out improvisation in OT/Bluegrass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKGn3JxASjA

[jim stone]

Of course, there are many types of traditional music where flute is just as
appropriate as any stringed instrument, for instance Irish music and
so-called "northern" - especially New England - music. Unfortunately the
term "Old Time" is thought by many to include only Southern music - but
there's a lot more different stuff out there! A typical 19th century
quadrille band used flutes and brass instruments, and pioneers in the Far
West used whatever instruments were available. So any jam sessions open to
that type of old time music should welcome flute players who have a clue
about the style of music being played or are willing to learn it.
Vivian Williams
Voyager Recordings
www.VoyagerRecords.com From one of JS's links.

This expresses my hope, anyhow. I think a lot of people think of flutes as contemporary silver flutes, not
the more gutsy wooden instruments that were played in the 19th century. After all, conical wooden flutes
were around, people had to play something on them (why not a number of the fiddle tunes we celebrate today?)
and the instruments were quite mobile, of course. Also a lot of people seem to associate OT with 'the high lonesome sound'
of Appalachia, which is certainly string band. But we also play 'The Girl I Left Behind Me,' which was published in Dublin
in the 1850s, and so on.

[sbfluter]

I play in an old-time (not bluegrass) group in California. Our music tends to have a strong mid-western tendency with a lot of music from Illinois and Missouri. When I first joined the group the leader said only stringed instruments were allowed. Once in a while someone with a whistle shows up and that's allowed, but it happens very rarely. I have brought my flute a few times, criticism be damned. Nobody ever yelled at me, but I did get some commentary once when my flute wasn't in perfect tune and I sat next to the violin lady who has perfect pitch. Many have said my flute sounds really pretty and they like it. I find old-time a little hard to play on the flute. There are fewer notes and more rhythm and I haven't figured out how to do rhythm on my flute. I usually play the mandolin.

[Sirchronique]

Probably not a common instrument in the Appalachian tradition due to dental requirements

[jim stone]

Diane, what's happening with me is that I've been playing Americana on the street, maybe for fifteen years--first whistle, then flutes. I'm a street musician, I play at Soulard Farmer's Market here in St. Louis. We also have a guitar, a banjo, sometimes a fiddle. So I've had lots of practice with this stuff. I can play blues really well on the flute and fife, for instance. It's just a real different style of playing, a lot of it, though ITM ornaments still work. I continually return to ITM to improve my flooting.

Something that is helping me is learning tunes by following really good bluegrass/old time musicians on Youtube. I've been listening a lot to Sierra Hull and Tony Rice, and lots of good enough people have teaching videos for playing Blackberry Blossom, say, on the mando or guitar. Well I learn these on the flute and imitate the licks. There is something really creative going on in their, and the influences from jazz, blues and whatever, both rhythmically and melodically, intrigue me.