What is 'good' tone?

[UkesNeedLoveToo]

There is much WRITTEN about how to produce the kind of tone desired when playing Irish music but very little actual recorded comparisons or demos showing the difference between good tone and bad tone, or tone that is undesirable for Irish tunes. Can someone make such a demo? I know what a weak floppy sort of tone is, but get the impression that there is a strong tone that is not right. Usually the descriptions are if silver flute players not doing it right, but I'm sure they can produce a strong, albeit 'wrong' tone. Anyone care to record both side by side?
Edited to fix some auto-correct.

[Gromit]

Steph Geremia has a good tone check out her videos on youtube and here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2G57NR ... tml5=False

there are also loads more players Kevin Crawford, Mike Mcgoldrick etc., but there are also people playing with bad tone it will be obvious when you come across those videos

[Nanohedron]

I'd say there are a number of things to discuss. Adding to the mix, a brilliant fluteplayer once told me that the hardest thing to learn about tone was consistency. Beginning players are probably acutely aware of this.

I think only the very few are blessed early with good overall tone. It wasn't until after well more than 5 years on a good flute that I was really able to feel good about the tone I produced, and I wasn't done learning yet by a long shot.

[Tjones]

I was hoping that Jason would comment on this after his comment about Chris Norman in another thread. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=102477 There is a certain way the flute is played in Irish music by traditional players that will differ than a classical trained, or early music players, or players from another tradition. Terry McGee (http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Getting_the ... _tone.htm) has a section on his webpage describing how you go about achieving the sound. If you search on Youtube for the top Irish players and then search for player in other traditions, early music, Cuban, ect. you can start to hear the difference. Trying to achieve the tone typical of a good Irish player can be, for some of us, an on going challenge. And you need to listen to a lot of good Irish flute players.

[paddler]

I think you asked a really good question, and I have also been waiting for the discussion Tjones just outlined.

My take (and I am not an expert!) is that there are radically different goals for different types of music. Also, individual listeners have their own preferences, and individual players have their own personal styles, but I think the OP was really asking about the first part of this: what should the goal be for ITM? I'll comment on that after taking a shot at the Chris Norman part of the question.

Regarding Chris Norman, I love the tone he produces when its used for the style of music he typically plays (say on his "Man with The Wooden Flute"). But I also recognize it as being radically different to that of other ITM players I like, such as Kevin Crawford, Harry Bradley, Conal O'Grada, Catherine McEvoy, Matt Molloy etc. When I play ITM I strive to emulate the latter group, rather than Chris. For other styles of music I might strive to emulate Chris. When I listen to Chris I think he aspires to similar kinds of tonal goals to those presented in the video below, by Kate Clark, on how to make a beautiful sound on a baroque flute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXJzZ-SOErc

My feeling is that this IS a beautiful sound, but its not the right tonal goal for ITM. So what is the right tonal goal for ITM? To be honest, I'm not sure there really is one, or that tone really matters that much. When I play, people often comment that I have good tone, but I think this is often just a polite way of saying I have inconsistent rhythm. For ITM, I think good rhythm and pulse trumps tone any day, and the best ITM players do not necessarily even have particularly good tone. Its good enough, but they have fantastic rhythm and energy in their playing. Purity of sound certainly does not matter. Just listen to the huffing and puffing of some of the top ITM players. They use a variety of non-pure sounds to great musical effect.

[ScottMaurer]

Good tone is just that, tone that sounds good. It goes through fads what people find best for a particular genre but it is hard to go wrong with making a nice sound. To sound idiomatic it is far more important to play rhythmically and with the correct technique than with a particular sort of tone. This includes all those nonstandard, nonclassical sounds and ornaments.

[fied]

You know you're producing good tone when you can feel, under your fingers, the air vibrating through the whole length of the tube, every note sounds equally rounded and full and you can do anything with it from 'ppp' to 'fff,' vibrato, trills, etc. Squeaks, stuffiness, airiness, harshness or flatness do not constitute good tone, though these are sometimes used deliberately in modern music.

It takes years to reach consistency of tone on the flute, whether the flute's a metal Boehm or a wooden simple system.

[Akiba]

A meaty topic...If you listen to the Wooden Flute Obsession CD's, it's obvious there is no "one way" to play Irish flute, and there is no definitive "good tone". This is one aspect of Irish flute playing I truly love: the spectrum of tone and playing styles is wide and varied (unlike the classical flute world which is much more confined / defined / particular).

I think it also depends on one's inspiration, i.e. whom you are trying to emulate. I definitely aspire to what I consider the Roscommon style of playing as exemplified by Matt Molloy, Michael McGoldrick, Catherine McEvoy, John Wynne. But even among a particular style, you still have hard blowers (Matt Molloy and Catherine) and soft blowers (McGoldrick and Wynne).

Here's what I think is a basic charactistic of "good" Irish flute tone: a blasting sound and technique. In classical flute playing and all other woodwinds, you push the air through the instrument--starts at the top part, the mouth, the embouchure and goes through the horn (I think Chris Norman and Grey Larsen have this concept of tone, the air goes through the flute). For an Irish blasting tone, I think of the air going in the flute, but then the tone blasting back and out of the embouchure hole. This I think is the basis for developing not only the "hard" low D, but also generating the penetrating overtones and compressed sound of the Irish flute style. I think the conical shape of the "Irish" flute facilitates this type of playing and why it's hard if not nearly impossible to get the same blasting sound out of a cylindrical flute, e.g. Boehm. I have found that producing a tone that projects and is "loud" does not come from blowing harder, but by making that reverberated, blasted tone project by amplifying the tone through the proper formation of lips, mouth, throat.

Two clips from my link in my signature exemplify this concept of tone (which I am still working on and devloping): Brenda Stubbard's and Steely's Cut.

[JS]

You know you're producing good tone when you can feel, under your fingers, the air vibrating through the whole length of the tube, every note sounds equally rounded and full and you can do anything with it from 'ppp' to 'fff,' vibrato, trills, etc. Squeaks, stuffiness, airiness, harshness or flatness do not constitute good tone, though these are sometimes used deliberately in modern music.

It takes years to reach consistency of tone on the flute, whether the flute's a metal Boehm or a wooden simple system.

Wonderful description from Ciaran Carson's "Last NIght's Fun" --"But gradually, you start to get a buzz. You learn to 'fill' the flute. You feel the flute vibrate when it is warm, and the little coin-columns of air stacked beneath your fingertips dance up and down."

[tin tin]

Good thoughts here. I agree, the diversity of acceptable tones with in Irish music is one of its strengths. (Imagine rock music with only one good guitar tone!) That said, although we can all make a long list of ITM players with great tone(s), Matt Molloy rises to the top for me. (And his magisterial tone is only one ingredient in his remarkable musicality.)

Re: Chris Norman, yes, his sound and style fall well outside the norms for Irish trad (of course, he's not an Irish trad player, and he's also playing a much smaller-holed flute than most ITM players), but he's one of the best flute players alive (regardless of style or type of instrument); there's a lot to be learned about music and flute playing from listening to him. And his tone has changed over the years, from the dulcet sounds of his first album to a reedier/edgier sound on later albums (The Caledonian Flute is a highlight).

[jim stone]

Yes, I once took a workshop here in St. Louis with Chris Norman. I think he was playing his boxwood Rudall. The volume he was able to get from it was amazing. It sounded like a supremely musical buzz saw.

[TWO TOOTS]

I suppose " Folk Music " by definition is always evolving through time, and the idea of what constitutes " Good Tone " on Irish flute will also slowly adapt as great players with their own sound influence the playing style of others around and those that follow. I would like to think of Chris Norman in these terms. Whether he is successful or not in this process largely depends on the number of people/players who feel his playing has something to offer and then go on to emulate and adopt certain facets of his individual style. As has been mentioned earlier, the Folk Scene is a largely unregulated " Broad Church " when it comes to acceptance of the slightly left of field type of play. I for one, truly admire this man's tone and skill as a player and hope there is room for the refinement, precision and tone that he brings to the table. Whether or not Chris Norman is defined as an Irish traditional player is up to you, but the fact he is a great flute player is without question.

[Steampacket]

"I agree, the diversity of acceptable tones with in Irish music is one of its strengths. (Imagine rock music with only one good guitar tone!) That said, although we can all make a long list of ITM players with great tone(s), Matt Molloy rises to the top for me. (And his magisterial tone is only one ingredient in his remarkable musicality.)" Tin Tin.

Yes, there you have it. There are many "good tones" in Irish traditional flute playing. My favorite is the tone that Pat Mahon gets. It's not at all pretty. It's a powerful, loud, and raw sound that says a lot about the man and his life. It draws you in after the initial shock. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdGfIaxyrKQ

[TWO TOOTS]

I am totally taken in with Pat Mahon's tone and playing. Raw and beautiful at the same time, you almost feel as if you are in touch with the man's spirit. If music is a means of communication on an emotional basis, there is no higher accolade. At the other end of the spectrum, the same could be said of Chris Norman's sublime technical ability. You also feel that connection, although it's coming from a different angle. The thing both players have in common is their ability to reach you.

[jim stone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L__0Y6 ... tml5=False

contrasts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXCAYMZ ... tml5=False